Job Discussion Forums

[mourningclam]

I got a job offer at a university in Shenyang(?) and everything seems nice, except the salary. They are offering 3600RMB. What is the possibilty of negotiating a higher salary? I know I couldnt ask for 6-7000 but I would settle for 4 or 4.5 maybe. How is the best way to ask for a higher pay without being offensive or presenting myself as a greedy capitalist pig? I have CELTA and three years experience, shouldn't that help things?

[ChinaLady]

yes, the salary is LOW. you do have a ba or bs to go with the CELTA? a masters? ha - at least 7,000 yuan.
if you are coming over from South Korea - be aware that you wil be making about 20% of what you made in the ROK. yes, the cost of living is cheaper in China BUT the cost of out of country travel for holidays remains the same high western prices, unless you plan on doing China travel only.
extra tutoring is a joke - 50 yuan an hour is considered high by most Chinese. the government has levels. depends on how many hours and what your degree and background is.
and the housing? is it fully paid or will they spring a gas bill and an electirc bill on you in mid-November. do you have your own flat? or are you sharing? do you get a free lunch in the school canteen? the Internet? paid. computer? theirs or yours.? a semester travel allowance? some schools are now giving 1,500 to 3,000 yuan at the end of the semester to encouage you to travel in China. txes? who pays? you or the school?
salary is not the whole package.
look over the whole deal.

[Roger]

With a M.A.'s you have some bargaining power - but not much. Even 4500 is high by many accounts.

Public schools won't pay as well as private ones.

[Teacher Lindsay]

Are you talking about Shenyang Institute of Technology?

If not, try them; they're always looking for foreign teachers.

Check this link:-

http://www.aacircle.com.au/cgi-bin/forums/china/teach-in-china.pl/noframes/read/215

S.I.T. 's usual opening offer is 4,000 but they'll go as high as 4,500 [no higher].

S.I.T. provide an on-campus apartment and there is no charge for electricity, gas and water [excluding drinking water]. Also, foreign teachers get free treatment at the on-campus medical clinic.

There is plenty of scope to do evening classes at one of the private language schools; S.I.T. do not object.

One S.I.T. teacher told me that he averages 8,000 per month with his 2nd, evening job.

Shenyang is very, very, very cold in winter.

Cheers

[Ludwig]

'Mourningclam', I do not believe you should necessarily worry unduly about "being offensive or presenting [yourself] as a greedy capitalist pig".

There is many an interesting myth in China. I have for example recently finished a fairly dense compilation of such myths and some, it must be said, are quite fascinating and have some not inconsiderable literary value. One of my particular favourites is the genuinely ancient Chinese myth that hypotheses that in the beginning was a great dragon and that it was this 'Ur-being' that breathed the fire of life into the earth. As I say, great stories.

However, there are also modern, urban myths that play an important role in present-day China. One such contemporary mainland myth stipulates that (Chinese) professors at (Chinese) universities are 'poorly' paid (the figure usually quoted is invariably around the 3,000 RMB a month mark).

This modern-day mainland myth (MDMM) - as other myths � is ultimately passed down and around through cultural transmission and, in this case somewhat interestingly, is also frequently propagated by foreign teachers in China (who may well never have seen a Chinese university professor's contract in their entire life). Unlike the 'dragon-at-the-start-of-life-on-earth' myth, this persistent MDMM can be disproved with simple redress to an actual contract.

The (mainland Chinese) university professors that I personally know earn anywhere between 20 and 45 thousand RMB a month (depending on location, location, location, and experience and research ties) and also often benefit from both free campus accommodation, a free flat and, occasionally, perhaps even (the use of) a town house. The Hong Kong Chinese professors that I know who frequent China once or twice a year (usually in the capacity of visiting lecturers, external examiners or external PhD supervisors) often earn 10 or 15 thousand RMB for a week-long visit. Now, you must understand that I refer to full professors. That is, men and women (in fact, thinking of it, many are women) who have no less than one hundred peer-referred academic publications, (no mean feat).

The picture of the poor old downtrodden Chinese university professor cycling to work in his (peppered-with-holes) worker�s dungarees is simply one of those enduring myths in China that will go forever if left unchallenged and unexamined. I think it is worth considering why it has persisted for quite so long.

I was once riding from mainland China back into Hong Kong. Standing next to me on the KCR were two Canadians who were � by all (overheard) accounts � enjoying a day off in Hong Kong from work as English teachers in, I think, Guangzhou. I listened to them for around ten minutes or so as I could not really actually help it, and I was also quite interested in the themes of their banter. They both had a very sceptical view of their employers and the intentions of their employers and, in fact, actually expressed scepticism at the suggestion that any Chinese person on the mainland EVER told the truth.

However, when it came to the (inevitable) topic of the relative worth of their salary as when compared to a professor at a university in China, one stated that they - although only earning (I think it was around) 6 or 7 thousand RMB a month - earned more than professors at universities (who, it was claimed, only earn around 3 or 4 thousand RMB). The other guy asked how he had come about this information. The reply he received was that the figure had come straight from their school owner, (that is, the same person who, they previously agreed, never contemplated ever uttering the truth).

This is most odd, indeed. It seems to me that these two guys did not believe anything that emanated from the lips of their employers with the exception of when it suited them to indeed do so. That is, when it made them feel better about themselves they believed what they were told. If not, then it was not believed.

I believe it is for reasons such as these that such myths are so enduring despite all salient contrary evidence.

[Wolf]

So you say that's full professors who have published 100 articles. This begs a few questions that I'd like to see the answer to one day but (no offense) I don't think anyone has.

-What's the exact percentage of Chinese professors making wages I could expect from a high-level tenured position in the first world?
-For those that don't qualify for full professor status, how much to the other Chinese teachers at universities make on average; broken down province by province?
-How much do FEs really make on average, once agian broken down province by province?
-How much can government schools reasonably afford to pay us? What about private schools?
-How much should FEs justifiably expect to earn; once again broken down province by province.

Morningcalm - the highest salary for a forienger who taught English that I can vouch for is just over 9000. Not to go into details, but that boy had some skills. You won't walk into one of those jobs fresh off the boat.

8000 Is great, 6000 is good, 5000 isn't too shabby, and 3500 is reality for many FEs I know (we're in a not so rich area.) Depending on location. Get them to throw in stuff like free housing and utilities (esp with uni jobs.) Airfare too. Negotiate that.

But if you walk up to an FAO and as for 45 000 a month; well, you may as well ask for his first born child and his eternal soul as well. Trust me; you will not make that kind of money in China. You will also not sprout wings and fly after reading my post. The moon won't come hurtling down from the sky tonight and steal your umbrella. You won't be stung to death by a pack of flaming bowling balls.

[Teacher Lindsay]

Wolf wrote:-

[Teacher Lindsay]

Oh, and Ludwig, have a look at this website:-

http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/99/0305/cs2.html

Cheers

[Ludwig]

'Teacher Lindsay', thank you very kindly for the URL. I thought the segment regarding true professions in this region, (that is, the following extract), was of particular interest:

"Base salaries in this category sometimes dramatically understate actual pay by excluding bonuses and allowances. Especially in Japan, South Korea, China and Taiwan, bonuses form a substantial part of income."

I would draw your attention to the use of 'dramatically'.

[inmexico]

Mourningclam - Just the fact that the job is in Shenyang would make me look elsewhere, nevermind the salary. Yes, there are other Chinese cities that are equally disgustingly filthy, but there are many that would be a big step up from that. If you want to go to the northeast, may I suggest Dalian over Shenyang.

[mourningclam]

Thanks alot for the flood of information. It has helped a great deal. I have a bunch of job offers, just nothing hitting at the 6000 mark that people tell me not to go below. Money isnt the most important aspect, the experience is. It would be nice to have the extra income though.

[Talkdoc]

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[Talkdoc]

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[Teacher Lindsay]

Talkdoc wrote:-

[Talkdoc]

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