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mat chen · Joined: 01 Nov 2009 Posts: 494 Location: xiangtan hunan

Ya I agree sistercream, get them looking at you and not at the book. Movies are good also. I have found my best students in China use Skype. Seeing other people speak is important.
One thing I have done is hand out gum. The students here tend to have their tongues hanging out of their mouths alot. This I don't understand because there are no sounds in Chinese where the tongue is out of the mouth.

Randolf · Joined: 04 Jun 2006 Posts: 15

no, it's not a 'mind set'. and it's not 'language transfer'. 'language transfer' is a non-concept invented by some pseudo-academic espouser of half-baked ideas trying to pose as a linguist. you can get absolutely anything printed in the mostly nonsensical 'field' of linguistics if you know the right people.

the pronunciation problem occurs simply because the Chinese language requires a different use of musculature than does English,so one needs to train them in how to use their muscles to make english sounding noises.

even different accents in english use different musculature - when actors study different accents with their accent trainers they are taught how to use them and practise that.

whiner is also very much on the right track with making them aware of the consonants and other sounds that exist in speech but are not represented in the english writing system.

p.s .movies are absolutely useless. (except as a pretend reward when you want to have a rest)

The Great Wall of Whiner · Joined: 29 Jan 2003 Posts: 4946 Location: Blabbing

ymmv · Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 387

[quote="chinanoodles"]

MisterButtkins · Joined: 03 Oct 2009 Posts: 1221

Thanks for the tips guys. I tried the phone number game for the mitt/meat sounds and it worked well. It definitely helps them hear the difference, and I feel like for some of them it helped them say the words correctly.

Still, sometimes it seems like we're fighting an uphill battle when teaching pronunciation. Most of their Chinese English teachers have strong accents and can't say it properly themselves. Not only that, but the Chinese English teachers probably can't hear the mistakes in the students' pronunciation clearly and so won't correct it, allowing the students to slip back into all their mistakes.

chinanoodles · Joined: 13 May 2011 Posts: 74

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

@misterbuttkins - http://international.ouc.bc.ca/Pronunciation/

That website should be of use to you and anyone else as it has full lessons and audio for minimal pair pronunciation lessons, ship/sheep etc. Some of the minimal pairs used may not be problems with your set of students, but you can pick and choose which ones you want.

@GWOW - you couldnt tell me how the heck I install IPA on my laptop could you??????

@Cormac, I had the same problem last year and came here for a solution, looked online for resources, tried to find confirmation of errors that Mandarin speakers have in the hope of finding a lesson plan that offered students a chance to correct their problem. Bad news is I didnt really find one. There are lots of resources that confirm Chinese doesnt have consonant clusters, most words end in vowels etc (as noted in this thread), but very little information on how to correct it. Compare this to the ship/sheep - smell, smile issue....I have posted a link for minimal pairs tasks, but there is little to address the weak a/shwa added to many words...frustrating stuff IMO.

I have found if I have a problem with students use of articles, comparitives, present continuous, superlatives, adverbs of frequency etc etc, there is a lesson plan for it, but cant find a set lesson for this problem mentioned.

Without wishing to demotivate you further, I couldnt get rid of this problem with my students last year. I had two or three students that had real issues with it, and I had them for 90 minutes a day, five days a week, in very small class sizes. Eliminating this error in a Uni setting is going to be even harder IMO. To some degree, you are going to have to put the ball back in their court. Most students will know/recognise the mistake, and if they are serious about their English, they will have to take responsibility on their own to correct this. You need to encourage them to stop the mindless revision of words and pointless morning reading tasks and have them focus on issues like this in their study time.

Some of the comments made are correct. GWOW is correct in mentioning connected speech, but I feel it is only usable in some areas of speech, not all. Its only a partial solution (although it can be a lot of fun in class with drills etc). Dont get me wrong, it is good .... but it doesnt eliminate the issue at the end of a sentence for example. It also opens up some other issues that you need to be aware of...I think one of his examples shows the addition of a consonant sound that doesnt exist in the spelling of the words. He has correctly added a /w/ sound and swapped an /s/ for a /z/ so there are some 'rules' you need to research if you want to present those ideas. Its a lot of work too! Consider a 100 word passage that you must read and check for examples of linked speech, ellision etc.

As also mentioned, you need to introduce new words and drill with a focus on syllables. Again, dead important but also I found that using the 'cat' example, 99% of my students knew that only had one syllable, but they still said it with the weak a at the end making it two syllables.

You also need to slow your students down. This problem occurs more when they speak quicker. If you really want accuracy you have to break your students back down to an elementary level of speaking speed and slow them down to make them accurate. Of course, this doesnt always go down well, more so when its only a few students who really have this problem.

Bottom line for me is you do need to make your students responsible for correcting this on their own (to some degree). They need to be acutely aware of it, and spend time thinking about it and practising it away from class. Within class, you can use some examples of linked speech, slow them down for accuracy, and make sure you drill syllables. At this time I havent found a set lesson but if I do, Ill share it with you.

ymmv · Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 387

the_otter · Joined: 02 Aug 2010 Posts: 134

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

ymmv - Thanks for agreeing with me Very Happy

but you forgot to post the link to the site you mention!

I like your idea about using Chinese words to get them close to a near perfect pronunciation of a troublesome word. I had a student who had a problem with the pleasure/measure/treasure (I cant write IPA but its the 's' sound of these words. I didnt encounter this with many students, just her and struggled to get her back on track.

In trying to find a solution to that, I came across a video link where a teacher suggested a possible solution would be to get the student to use the 'sh' sound instead. It doesnt make her pronunciation 100%, but it makes it closer than it was previously...and sometimes thats enough!

ymmv · Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 387

chryanvii · Joined: 19 Jul 2009 Posts: 125

Does pronunciation in the English language really matter? I might get hounded for this one, but my philosophy is that as long as you can understand what they are saying, then it's acceptable.

The chinese seem so adamant about being able to pronounce every word correctly...my feeling about this is because of the way the chinese language is set up into 4 tones. Yes you need to pronounce your chinese using the right tone...otherwise you won't be understood. But in the English language it's completely different!

Some people say "tow-may-tow" and some people say "tow-maw-tow".
To me, its' the same. I have chinese students come up to me and ask me the difference between these kinds of things and which one is correct...and they look at me funny when I tell them it just doesn't matter.

For more difficult words such as "interpretation" I can understand a little drilling until they say it correctly as a class. But spending large amounts of time on pronunciation...I just don't get it.

Also, you always see the chinese students spending their extra hours on outside working on pronunciation. To be quite frank...it seems like a ridiculous waste of time to me. But...once again, they're trained this way because of the way the chinese language is set up.

It's my job to turn this philosophy around...let them know that fluency is much more important than pronunciation. What do you think?

chinanoodles · Joined: 13 May 2011 Posts: 74

...but this thread is about pronunciation.

I agree that being understood is of primary importance but should a student not wish to improve more?

'tah-may-tow' and 'tuh-mah-tow' is a far cry from 'beaches' and 'bitches' or 'sheet' and 'shit'.

I teach a Business English class where my students all work for the same company. Their largest client sent some folks over from the US to check out the factory here in QD. One of my students was tasked with entertaining the foreign guests. When one of the female reps. from the US asked her what QD was famous for, she promptly replied "QD is famous for its beautiful 'bitches'". Yes, she said 'beaches' but it sounded like 'bitches'.....

Silly example but uh...yeah...pronunciation is important.

Not to derail this thread but I am forced to wonder what your feelings are on grammar. Would you be satisfied with a student who says something like...'You want go where, we go where." just because some may understand it?

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

ymmv · Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 387

Agree (again).

Fluency is more important, but pronunciation cannot be left behind.

I do both university work and training for companies (who send their staff to my classes through the university). Many of the staff are there because they have a difficult time being understood especially on phone calls, Skype, MSN, and in tele-conferences.

Another overlooked, or often times unrealized benefit of the pronunciation lesson is that it also improves the Ss LISTENING skills. I point this out to them, especially when I do some lessons/drills on connected speech. I tell them: "You don't have to speak like this, but please realize that this is how native speakers speak."

Just pointing out, for example, that Americans usually (you+zh+wo+li) use "yuh" and "yer" instead of "you" and "your" in interrogatives, and that they elide it all - well, it's like a Eureka moment to many of them.

How many times have you met someone with seemingly fluent English and you ask them: "Whaddya do?"

Or a student: "Whatsyermajor?" or "What school d'ya go to?"

And they look at you like your speaking Swahili.

While my students by-and-large fail at being able to reproduce these connectives effectively, almost to a T, they all say it has really helped their LISTENING skills. They report back to me that they can now understand more of the dialog in movies that they watch, for what that's worth.

So here's one advocate of the "Teaching Pronunciation Improves Listening" school of thought (if there is such a school of thought-and if there isn't, let's establish one!).