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chinanoodles
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 74
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 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Happy Everyday wrote: |
| chinanoodles wrote: |
You have expressed this many times and in many threads but I am wondering why. What are you hoping to attain. Are you expecting some kind of equality? I would suggest you don't hold your breath waiting for it.
There are opportunities here for foreigners who are needed for their expertise in certain areas but most of us are a dime a dozen. Why would anybody hire a foreigner when a local can fill the same job for less money?
I have no illusions about my standing in Chinese society. I am forever outside of it and am only included by the wishes of locals. I am not special. I am replaceable. It matters not one tiny bit how much I 'invest' in China, I am not needed here and not even truly wanted by the majority.
If anyone expects to walk into China and be welcomed with open arms and have the same opportunities a local does I suggest they work very hard at removing head from ass.
I know some folks are all sore that about how hard it is to break into some industries here (entertainment for example) but I have to wonder why they are trying so hard. If a country is not offering you what you want or need, go find another. If anyone wants to be treated like a local then they could even do something crazy like live in their own country where they would actually be a local and have the benefits that seem to be alluding them elsewhere.
Some foreigners are very funny. They only want to be treated like a local only when it benefits them. |
Let's reverse what you say and apply it to the many Chinese who want more opportunities with western organizations. Or to those who seek to assimilate into Western society. Oh, wait, that would be racist. But to do it to a westerner isn't? |
There is no need to reverse it. It's not applicable.
Apples and Oranges.
You are taking a scenario and applying it to countries with vastly different cultures, laws, and beliefs and expecting the same outcome.
You seem to be wanting China to be the same as some Western countries (of which I believe you may have overestimated how fair they truly are)...perhaps the issue isn't China but your own expectations. |
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Guerciotti
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 842
Location: In a sleazy bar killing all the bad guys.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Happy Everyday wrote: |
| They often say that there are too many foreigners in China, so the salaries are low. Some have also stopped including housing stipends or housing on campus while offering 2002 wages. |
I keep hearing the "more foreigners are coming to China so ..." line, and I just don't believe it. If there are so many foreigners, why can't my school, paying 5000 per month for 16 hours per week and a free place to stay, find another teacher or two? It's not a bad place, but not the best.
I just don't buy the "more foreigners" line.
The same people tell me I can't make more than 100 per hour for private lessons. Guess what?
I don't deny the inflation, but I don't buy the stated reasons for stagnant salaries.
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chinanoodles
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Guerciotti wrote: |
| Happy Everyday wrote: |
| They often say that there are too many foreigners in China, so the salaries are low. Some have also stopped including housing stipends or housing on campus while offering 2002 wages. |
I keep hearing the "more foreigners are coming to China so ..." line, and I just don't believe it. If there are so many foreigners, why can't my school, paying 5000 per month for 16 hours per week and a free place to stay, find another teacher or two? It's not a bad place, but not the best.
I just don't buy the "more foreigners" line.
The same people tell me I can't make more than 100 per hour for private lessons. Guess what?
I don't deny the inflation, but I don't buy the stated reasons for stagnant salaries.
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It depends on who handles the hiring and advertising for the school I believe. Some schools I know of in my city have no problem finding new blood, others do. The school I work for now has no trouble finding new bodies even though they underpay and overwork. I give the woman who handles that as part of her job a lot of credit. She almost always brings in quality teachers...I slipped in through the cracks I guess.
..and location is important too. |
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Shan-Shan
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 1074
Location: electric pastures
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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With the average FT being the carrot carved into an miniature ornamental dragon highlighting some pieces of pork on a semi-swank dinner spread, it would be shocking to see an increase in wages. Now that every table has their own variation -- some are pagodas or phoenixes -- these inedible, old carrots adding a bit of quirkiness to the standard consumables cannot help but lose their relative value.
When the FT was a super gimmick, days long preceding the present where the FT is only an expected gimmick, sumptuous offerings of inflation resistant care were exchanged for the attractive force a single FT had over the local education market. Now that the majority of schools have the authority to hire an FT, and the funds to satisfy the average FT's gurgling tummy, FT influence on a school's success nears cancelling itself out.
Also, FTs are presumed to be idiots. See the China Job Section:
No degree necessary but Want native speakers who are very active good at sing children songs or games ,
teaching 3-8 years old kids
working hours Wednesday to friday 3:30-8:30 staturday and sunday all day .
salary 6000-9000RMB per month
we give our teacher one week free traning show how to teach lessons and use our materials
6000RMB airtickets allowance
also air-port pick up
if u are interested in it can send me your details informations
[email protected]
I would not respect an FT who was seduced by a week of "traning"; Yue Li of Hebei likely does not either.
The dismal situation of most FT wages/benefits is determined by the unimportance attached to the position and the fact that most non-Asian passports will be accepted for Z visa processing purposes. Until expectations are elevated, little will improve. |
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Happy Everyday
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by Happy Everyday on Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:39 am Post subject: |
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You talk about the reciprocity of relations, is that for you personally?
How many foreign companies are at the moment making billions off of cheap Chinese labor? It would be a joke to consider that the US government (or any other Western government) cares at all about China giving you or me some opportunity. All they are interested in is the big businesses continuing to get cheap products.
Few in China are getting rich off of this arrangement. The same for the partners of this exchange (few), mostly people connected to the governments promising these opportunities. Sadly, for the average person on both sides it has no benefit. China's economy is dependent on keeping labor price low and exporting and many Western countries are so far in debt it is laughable. Who benefits?
As far as inflation, well, it is everywhere. I would suggest discussing pay scale when you apply for jobs. My salary at my current job has went up every year. Also, certain things go up randomly because of external factors. One big issue now is drought. Expect lots of crop failure and a jump in grain/vege/fruit price. If we were all ready for this we would have stocked up while it was cheap. I do have an array of jarred fruit and vege.
Oddly, the price of processed foods (crackers, crisps, ect, mostly made by foreign companies) hasn't really changed. Same with soft drinks, beer, cigarettes...
It is mostly just fresh foods.
Housing prices are soaring, which is quite odd. I hear the reasoning of there are so many people, but that is just backwards. There are so many empty flats it is ridiculous. Besides, most times they are destroying people's existing housing to make these vacant high rises. The government really needs to get a handle on this. Often it seems they just want to push all problems aside and wait for the golden moment to solve years of built up problems. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| A lot of the differences are historical in nature. The U.S. was an immigrant country from the get-go, and still retains an element of that. China was closed for many years and is only now opening up. You can't expect the countries to be equivalent. Certainly you can see a more integrated workforce and society in Hong Kong, and more open immigration policies. Perhaps in time the mainland will get there -- who knows? And by the way, not every western country is open to immigration. Try working in Denmark, for example -- and I don't care where your passport is from, even another EU country. You'll find China to be a real melting pot by comparison. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| chinanoodles wrote: |
There is no need to reverse it. It's not applicable.
Apples and Oranges. |
That's unfair.
It is applicable. Many Chinese often compare China to 'wai guo' all the time. The good, the bad, and the ugly. Whether it is food, culture, language, movies, music, manners, driving, laws.... they all get compared.
| Quote: |
| You are taking a scenario and applying it to countries with vastly different cultures, laws, and beliefs and expecting the same outcome. |
Well, hang on. That's also unfair.
Other countries in this region share a similar culture and beief system of that of China. The Confucious way of doing things, the traditional family, the all mighty power of the boss... the list is endless. And comparing the west to them would be a piece of cake.
China is not some tin pot 3rd world country any longer. It is an emerging major world superpower. It cannot protect itself from scrutiny. Why does the US get picked on by every country on this planet but China feels it should have some sort of immunity?
| Quote: |
| You seem to be wanting China to be the same as some Western countries |
Unfair. China itself wants to be the 'same as western countries' in terms of respect, economic abilities, technology, modernism... the list is again endless.
So if it wants to be on the same level as a western country (G8, IMF, WTO, etc.) then it has to be prepared for the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Wanting all the rights but none of the responsibilities in my eyes deserves scrutiny.
| Quote: |
| (of which I believe you may have overestimated how fair they truly are)...perhaps the issue isn't China but your own expectations. |
Well, to be fair, just look at all the ads for foreign teachers across the internet. They claim a land of tea and honey, do they not?
When we go shopping, we compare brands. Choosing a job in a certain country is no different. |
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chinanoodles
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| chinanoodles wrote: |
There is no need to reverse it. It's not applicable.
Apples and Oranges. |
That's unfair.
It is applicable. Many Chinese often compare China to 'wai guo' all the time. The good, the bad, and the ugly. Whether it is food, culture, language, movies, music, manners, driving, laws.... they all get compared.
| Quote: |
| You are taking a scenario and applying it to countries with vastly different cultures, laws, and beliefs and expecting the same outcome. |
Well, hang on. That's also unfair.
Other countries in this region share a similar culture and beief system of that of China. The Confucious way of doing things, the traditional family, the all mighty power of the boss... the list is endless. And comparing the west to them would be a piece of cake.
China is not some tin pot 3rd world country any longer. It is an emerging major world superpower. It cannot protect itself from scrutiny. Why does the US get picked on by every country on this planet but China feels it should have some sort of immunity?
| Quote: |
| You seem to be wanting China to be the same as some Western countries |
Unfair. China itself wants to be the 'same as western countries' in terms of respect, economic abilities, technology, modernism... the list is again endless.
So if it wants to be on the same level as a western country (G8, IMF, WTO, etc.) then it has to be prepared for the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Wanting all the rights but none of the responsibilities in my eyes deserves scrutiny.
| Quote: |
| (of which I believe you may have overestimated how fair they truly are)...perhaps the issue isn't China but your own expectations. |
Well, to be fair, just look at all the ads for foreign teachers across the internet. They claim a land of tea and honey, do they not?
When we go shopping, we compare brands. Choosing a job in a certain country is no different. |
Comparing is one thing. Saying 'it's like this in the US, it should be like that in China" is a whole different ballgame. If any foreigner said something like that to you in real life you would likely think they are new here or failing to adjust.
China does not want to be like the west in any ways except power and money and comforts for the well off. If China could have pulled itself out of the pit it was in without letting any bit of Western culture seep into the country they would have. If they could have taught their students real English without FT's, they would have.
As to the ads for FT's claiming a land of milk and honey....only a fool would be seduced by them. Also, I think you are exaggerating. Here are some quotes from random ads on this site, I am sure you can find some to counter but they'll likely be the exception.
Suzhou is a one hour drive out of Shanghai. It is a city of 6.5 million people and is known as the ��Venice of the East�� as it is located on the ancient Grand Canal and is a city steeped in history.
Hello from the tremendous city of Daqing China Daqing is the oil capital of China; it is located in the northeast in Heilongjiang province and is very close to the provincial capital city of Harbin. The air is good and the traffic is smooth, not as crowded as other big cities! The climate in Daqing is quite nice, hot in summer and cold in winter. Daqing is well equipped for the winter and everywhere has hot heating systems, the only time you will need to wear your coat and sweater is when you are outside walking, skiing or ice skating etc
Handan City is located in the south part of Hebei Province. It abuts on three provinces Shanxi, Shandong and Henan. It is 150km away from the capital of Hebei Province Shijiazhuang City in the north, and 450km from the Beijing City. It is a historical city which has many historical relics and it is also the cradle of Tai Chi. Furthermore, it is very convenient to get the majority of Western comforts here. There are several KFC's, Macdonalds and Pizza Huts. Walmart has also recently opened. There are also many parks, a lake and a river.
You will experience authentic Chinese culture in Xian, the famous cultural capital of China. The cost of living here is much lower that China's other large cities.
Those are from the first 14 ads listed on the site. Most of the ads said nothing about China. So what about the 'Land of Milk and Honey"? Granted...'Venice of the East" was a little over the top but /shrug
What exactly would a reasonable person expect from advertisements? |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Nice inflation advert above 
| Quote: |
chinanoodles replied;
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:55 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guerciotti wrote:
Happy Everyday wrote:
They often say that there are too many foreigners in China, so the salaries are low. Some have also stopped including housing stipends or housing on campus while offering 2002 wages.
I keep hearing the "more foreigners are coming to China so ..." line, and I just don't believe it. If there are so many foreigners, why can't my school, paying 5000 per month for 16 hours per week and a free place to stay, find another teacher or two? It's not a bad place, but not the best.
I just don't buy the "more foreigners" line.
The same people tell me I can't make more than 100 per hour for private lessons. Guess what?
I don't deny the inflation, but I don't buy the stated reasons for stagnant salaries.
It depends on who handles the hiring and advertising for the school I believe. Some schools I know of in my city have no problem finding new blood, others do. The school I work for now has no trouble finding new bodies even though they underpay and overwork. I give the woman who handles that as part of her job a lot of credit. She almost always brings in quality teachers...I slipped in through the cracks I guess.
..and location is important too.
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i think that many of us would agree with that. 
On topic, it seems the cost of living with higher prices of many products and services aren't the only inflation on mainland. The work load local employers offer has been inflated as well. And, watch out for the "teaching hours" wording in your contracts. It's academic vs real hours of teaching. |
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Happy Everyday
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Happy Everyday on Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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You are just factually wrong on so many counts. A couple examples:
-The U.S. is not just standing open for Chinese. Your average guy sitting in Chengdu can't just hop a plane and come to Nebraska and be a plumber. The means of getting a visa are limited. If he marries a U.S. citizen, he can, eventually, come work, and yes, most every field is open, if he has the skills. If he can get accepted to study molecular biology at the graduate level, he can possibly end up with a work-based visa when he graduates, but it is not as easy as you'd make it sound. He can't come study a low-demand field, like history, and expect to be able to stay on after graduation.
-In that respect, China is substantially more open. Most any American with a bachelor's degree (and many without) can get a work visa in China.
-The idea that Europe is open to Americans is a joke. To certain Americans, in certain circumstances, yes. But it's exceedingly limited. Generally speaking, given EU regulations, forget it. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
-The U.S. is not just standing open for Chinese. Your average guy sitting in Chengdu can't just hop a plane and come to Nebraska and be a plumber. The means of getting a visa are limited. |
The means of an American getting a visa to work in China is also limited to specialists and teachers, and perhaps diplomats, yes?
I believe that there is a big long list of occupations that are restricted, controlled, or not allowed. Religious and reporting come to mind immediately.
I think what he is trying to express is that Chinese, upon getting to America, can do anything if they work for it.
Including congressman. |
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Happy Everyday
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by Happy Everyday on Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:58 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Having a quick look at the top 14 ads I see...
(the "Vienna of China" notwithstanding):
TROPICAL Hainan Island, 9,500/month NO DEGREE REQUIRED
(Less hour positions are also available for those who want to lay on the beach)
AND
Hangzhou - a paradise tourism city in China....
Lots of milk and honey to be had! |
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