Job Discussion Forums

[lynnknows]

VS, you are right. I have worked with several recruiters that work with universities in Saudi. Each of these recruiters gather all the paper work, do a preinterview, check your employment history, and send the file to the universities. If you are selected by the university for an interview and a job, you will be a direct hire. The recruiter gets a finders fee from the university and the applicant never talks to them again.

I did this with JUC, some university in houf, I think, and an international school in Taif.

[johnslat]

Dear veiledsentiments,

But with a "recruiter-assisted direct hire" (as opposed to a "direct hire direct hire') doesn't the teacher sometimes have to pay the recruiter?

Regards,
John

[desertdawg]

What? All over this forum it says never pay recruiters.

Reputable recruiters who are in the VAST majority if the user has any common sense at all will never ask for any money from Western EFL teachers.

I have had three direct hire jobs in this region where I was recruited by a recruiter. NOT an oxymoron. If the previous poster (sorry this isn't a personal attack) had dealt with the HR depts of establishments in this area instead of being lucky enough to have had one employer, he would see the wisdom of using recruiters in many cases.

Using a recruiter or being a subcontractor aint all bad. As long as you apply the same common sense approach you would do to anything else. In today's world it can be a way to get your foot in the door/having a taster of what you're letting yourself in for.

[veiledsentiments]

I don't recall ever hearing or reading of any teacher paying a recruiter although one assumes that without them in the mix, one could theoretically be getting a higher salary.

VS

[johnslat]

Dear desertdawg,

"What? All over this forum it says never pay recruiters."

I could be wrong here, but it seems to me that warning teachers never to pay recruiters would mean that there are at least some recruiters that are going to ask for payment.

I mean, why warn people against doing it otherwise?

I'm also a believer in the "there's no such thing as a free lunch" credo. If an employer is paying a recruiter for obtaining your services, I find it difficult to believe that the employer isn't going to get some of that expense back at the teachers' expense.

Recruiters (or at the least the widespread use of them) are, I think, a fairly recent phenomenon in Saudi. But this discussion reminds me a little of the perennial "you don't need a degree to be a good teacher" arguments that constantly resurface. Yes, there are degree-less teachers who are great, but generally speaking, having a degree is better than not having one.

How does this apply? Well, generally speaking, I'd say that being a "direct hire direct hire" in Saudi is more likely to ensure better treatment than being a "recruiter assisted direct hire."

Many of the treads on this forum are about just that - how teachers were recruited and bamboozled.

"I have had three direct hire jobs in this region where I was recruited by a recruiter."

May I inquire how long you were in Saudi altogether? The reason I ask is that if it wasn't too long, then your having three different employers might indicate that you weren't too satisfied with at least the first two - or is that an invalid inference?

Regards,
John

[Warning Bells]

johnslat,

I have personally never come across a recruiter who asked me for payment. I only know of some teachers who were approached by notorious scams. They gave money to these 'recruiters' and it only lead to a dead end.

Legitimate recruiters are the lessor of the evils. Their job is to help you get a job. They are typically paid by the hiring agent. If you get a job through them, their job is over after that point. If they deliver you into the hands of a third-party agency, you should beware! It is best to go direct hire or nothing because I have yet to hear of a single agency with a solid reputation with regards to how they treat and pay their teachers. Most are nothing but horror stories.

[blackwellben]

[desertdawg]

I was in KSA for nearly six years off and on over a period of ten as I have stated elsewhere, leaving earlier this year.

I had three employers. I worked at KSU where I was recruited by Bell and sponsored by Obeikan.

Like I said in my previous post I have had three direct hires through recruiters in the region, ie other Arabian countries, not Saudi.

Recruiters are paid by the employer. Out sourcing is common today. The employer saves money by not having a recruitment dept. Very often the employee is helped by the recruiter in negotiating an employment package as it is in the recruiter's interest to get the best deal. They are often paid a percentage of your salary as a fee.

I nearly had the pleasure of working for one ARAMCO contractor (through a recruiter). That fine company out sources nearly everything. As Scot says, the ELTs share the same sponsor/employer as the cleaners.

Please make up your own mind as the original poster did. If you think you are ready to come to Saudi, then you should have enough common sense to deal with the various people you're going to come across.

I'm trying to say don't be put off by things you read here. There are always two sides. If I had believed half the stuff I'd read on Dave's, then I never would have used a recruiter in Oman or at KSU. Both experiences were successful.

[isabel]

Anyone have any idea what happened to the woman who was the subject of this thread?

There are two important points to consider before deciding to relinquish your freedom to the tragic kingdom:

First, you CANNOT leave without an exit visa, which can be withheld on a whim.

Second, the reason you can no longer post on Dave's from the Kingdom is that people experiencing serious problems posted them on Dave's.

No freedom to leave when you choose, and no freedom of speech. Think about it. Long and hard. Then check out the jobs in The Emirates and Oman.

[Warning Bells]

isabel, you speak the truth! I find it deeply disturbing that we still have no idea what has happened to this woman.

desertdawg, Are you trying to claim that you were directly hired at KSU, but your sponsor was Obeikan?! Obeikan would be your employer, not KSU! In your case, there are four parties involved. KSU is the venue; Obeikan is the employer/agency/sponsor; Bell is the recruiter/project manager; and, then there is you (the fourth party). I've heard few positive reports from teachers I've worked with who've come from such a mismanaged situation. Too many chefs in the kitchen with this deal. It's hard enough to work under just one, let alone THREE!

blackwellben, you are not worth replying to. I'm done.

[blackwellben]

[isabel]

People should think seriously about putting themselves in a situation like the ones you can find yourself in in the Kingdom. Not everyone has their visa pulled at the border when they are about to leave. But some do. Do you want to risk being stuck there?

Do you want to be somewhere where you are prevented from airing your grievances on a public forum? My friend who posted here with his real name was told by the uinversity he left that their biggest grievance with him was that he posted on Dave's. Almost immediately after people could no longer post on Dave's.

It is not the fact that everyone has a bad time in the Kingdom. But it is a loaded dice to roll. After another friend of ours had his visa cancelled at the border, a chill went through us all- fearful until we safely landed on the other side of the causeway, having used our exit only visa. When he got stopped it was only the beginning of the academic year- we all lived with the reality of what could happen not far from the front of our minds for the rest of the year.

[blackwellben]

[isabel]

When I said "my friend", I was not referring to me. By then I was long gone.

I put my opinion out there. There is no way to debate the pros and cons of maybes and possibilities. Everyone has to make their choice based on as much information as they can gather. It is hard to gather information on Saudi Arabia for work, when the people there in the Kingdom at least have to get a VPN to post on Dave's. My friend was told that the main reason he was terminated was for his postings on Dave's.

Yes, the rhetorical question is a rhetorical device, and we are dealing here with persuasive and informative rhetoric. I see no problem with that.

Do I want to persuade people away from working in the Kingdom? Well, wouldn't you warn people away from danger, and hope you were persuasive, if you sensed or knew about danger? There is another rhetorical question for you. You don't need to answer. I won't be answering you any more either. It will save us both some time and energy.

[blackwellben]