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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| seklarwia wrote: |
| They fired you on 20th June, right? And you had no idea that was coming, right? That is illegal |
I don't think it's illegal to fire someone without warning them of reasons earlier. |
Your use of the quote button is quite something to behold sometimes. I think that it's quite clear (or at least it was until you cut off the first sentence and then decided to quote that alongside 3 words from the beginning of sentence that is part of an idea that lasts the best part of 10 lines) that I'm refering to the fact that he isn't getting the month owed due to lack of notice and that those two questions are to clarify beyond doubt that he did in no way receive any notification of their intent to fire prior to that payday and is thus entitled to pay in lieu of.
| Quote: |
| (Of course, their "justification" doesn't hold water, but let's not get into that just yet except to point out what the labor laws say about it: |
Just to be clear; I don't believe that their reason holds any legal clout and I'm not saying that it's a good reason; only that I can understand now what that explanation might mean and why they might be wanting to get him out the door quickly and quietly.
As you pointed out, the OP seemed a bit naive about what to expect from eikaiwa (I'm assuming that's what it is from what little clear info he has supplied) and may be (either delibrately or unintentionally) making his opinions known verbally or through body language which could cause tension in the workplace and prove very damaging for business especially in smaller schools where he may be coming into contact with a large part of their customer base. If they did give him proper notice, he would know he was being fired and would have no reason not to be even more vocal about his views on the school... after all, what can they do if he starts running his mouth off and ruining their rapport with their customers? Fire him? 
And by doing it on payday and giving him a definite date on which he can expect (what the OP wrongly believes is) the rest of his payment there is no reason for him to be on school property univited in the meantime.
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| Yes, it would make sense to the employer, but I doubt it would make sense to anyone else at the school who has actually seen stumptowny there, including the students. |
But those people probably would have little reason to raise the issue; the customers just assume that if he's working in a school then he must be legit. But should they put the wrong dates on the letter of release which immigration later picks up on and gets the authorities involved, then eventually it would become public knowledge through the gossip tree that the school hires illegals (and who knows what crimes those illegals could be involved in or what other shadiness the school could be a part of). Even if the the school managed to dodge the legal bullet, they might as well close up shop for good because the locals certainly aren't going to be as forgiving.
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One more piece of advice to stumptowny:
Do not sign anything they give you! No termination letters, no waivers of responsibility, nothing! |
Seconded!
Stumptowny: make this your mantra when you have any further dealings or communications with your now ex-employer. I'd even go so far as to say that you should also be extremely careful with any written forms of communication including email. |
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stumptowny
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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sorry to all for my weak explanation about the details. I have been reluctant to share because I do not know who reads these, they are public, and I do not have my pay yet... after its over i can post all the details and warn others...
if you really want to know, it is surprisingly boring and commonplace. you will be like, oh, that happens all the time. no beating kids or sexing on the job or anything... just not a good fit. it's true. not even close to a good fit. if you pm me I will surely go off! again, not sure its worth your time...
the point of my post is for help with what I need to say and do with their requests now so thank you all for guidance along those lines.
Seklarwia: Your take on things is awesome.. the hypothetical termination would have been nice but it was all rather informal in comparison. I am fine with getting only what I earned and nothing more. the extra month pay for sacking me without giving me 30 days matters not. most importantly I want a better life for myself and peace out. I definitely was not side swiped by it all as I was ready to walk anyway.
Can I get a 4th month pay that I did not even work for? How if I was illegal?? Seems like the law, from what you are all saying, does not extend to my case. It's worth a shot if I can get it. Seems like article 20 and 21, which Glenski pointed out, cancel each other out to. I was illegal and in probationary period.
Glenski: your keen eye caught the contradiction. I was fired and the HR person said I quit. fishy eh. either they were being tactful for my honor or something is lining up in a bad way. yes, internal honesty is not good there..
re: 3. and being naive...I know that about teaching esl (edutainers) but there is a continuum from semblance of learning to total crapola. not black and white.
Your response email is good to. Thank you. I may use some of it.
HR knew my visa date was May 27... the school arranged my morning off to go to immigration! Not sure why they are asking the date when they scheduled the time off to make the trip?!
Your 1-5 from your last post are all correct...
Any other ideas for the email response?? |
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Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm glad you feel more in control of the situation now. Please do let us know how it all plays out. I'm curious to know if they use your visa status to reneg on paying you. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| Just to be clear; I don't believe that their reason holds any legal clout and I'm not saying that it's a good reason; only that I can understand now what that explanation might mean and why they might be wanting to get him out the door quickly and quietly. |
Actually, I don't understand it at all. They were willing to take a risk to have him work illegally, drew up a contract to say they'd hire him after a visa came through, and the moment it did, they fired him for a lame reason.
Something else is at play here in terms of the reason he was fired.
And, we don't really know why he was that ready to quit.
He uses the word "principal", so I don't think it is an eikaiwa.
Perhaps the school needed someone immediately and felt they could take on ScottishGringo for cheaper pay than a FTer, and when they went through applications or a dispatch agency long enough to find someone else that they really wanted, they decided to axe him. Heck, they might not even have a valid (legal) person ready to take his place, but instead might do the same thing over again with the next person. Seems weird, though, that they would have gone through the whole visa process.
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| Yes, it would make sense to the employer, but I doubt it would make sense to anyone else at the school who has actually seen stumptowny there, including the students. |
But those people probably would have little reason to raise the issue; the customers just assume that if he's working in a school then he must be legit. |
Whether it's an eikaiwa or mainstream school, the point I was making was that ScottishGringo should feel better knowing that if the employer lied about his start date, the students/customers/staff would be available as witnesses to the contrary.
Since SG doesn't even care about getting his legal compensation for a lack of 30 days' notice, I don't think he's even remotely contemplating taking any legal actions. Not the best of attitudes, IMO. He should at least keep them in mind. Cover his own butt!
[quote-"seklarwia"]eventually it would become public knowledge through the gossip tree that the school hires illegals (and who knows what crimes those illegals could be involved in or what other shadiness the school could be a part of).[/quote]What "other shadiness" are you talking about? ScottishGringo has committed no other crime than to work illegally!
| ScottishGringo wrote: |
| Seems like article 20 and 21, which Glenski pointed out, cancel each other out to. I was illegal and in probationary period. |
They cancel each other out only if the employer can prove you were truly in an official declared probationary period. I doubt that was on your contract. Was it? |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Actually, I don't understand it at all. They were willing to take a risk to have him work illegally, drew up a contract to say they'd hire him after a visa came through, and the moment it did, they fired him for a lame reason. |
Because a business liability should be dealt with when it arises. What it cost you to get to that point is a irrelevant. If there is a problem, deal with it. Likely they didn't expect the issue to come up and intented for him to be their employee, hence the visa.
You might not understand, but I can.
| Quote: |
| He uses the word "principal", so I don't think it is an eikaiwa. |
He also talks about revenue being the main focus and childcare dressed up as education... doesn't exactly sound like any public or private school.
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| Perhaps the school needed someone immediately and felt they could take on ScottishGringo... |
Wow! SG is really playing on your mind so much that you are confusing Stumptowny with a troll from a completely different thread.
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| [quote-"seklarwia"]eventually it would become public knowledge through the gossip tree that the school hires illegals (and who knows what crimes those illegals could be involved in or what other shadiness the school could be a part of). |
What "other shadiness" are you talking about? ScottishGringo has committed no other crime than to work illegally![/quote]
What are you talking about?
I'm talking about the public perception of school if their dodgey hiring practices became general knowledge. Not sure how you drew that meaning from what is written. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Actually, I don't understand it at all. They were willing to take a risk to have him work illegally, drew up a contract to say they'd hire him after a visa came through, and the moment it did, they fired him for a lame reason.
Something else is at play here in terms of the reason he was fired.
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Stop being paranoid. Not everything is a conspiracy. :)
It's entirely feasible that it took them about the same amount of time to get a visa as working out that they weren't a fit for each other. On that basis, Japan is surprisingly close to (what in the US is called) "employment at will" situation until a person hits the three year mark. They don't have to give a reason you find valid or reasonable. They just have to come up with something that is nominally within the employee and employers control. "Not a good fit for the company culture" is perfectly valid. Whether it's true in this instance is irrelevant. |
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stumptowny
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
Actually, I don't understand it at all. They were willing to take a risk to have him work illegally, drew up a contract to say they'd hire him after a visa came through, and the moment it did, they fired him for a lame reason.
Something else is at play here in terms of the reason he was fired.
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Stop being paranoid. Not everything is a conspiracy. 
It's entirely feasible that it took them about the same amount of time to get a visa as working out that they weren't a fit for each other. On that basis, Japan is surprisingly close to (what in the US is called) "employment at will" situation until a person hits the three year mark. They don't have to give a reason you find valid or reasonable. They just have to come up with something that is nominally within the employee and employers control. "Not a good fit for the company culture" is perfectly valid. Whether it's true in this instance is irrelevant. |
that's exactly how it went down. it was that timing aligned. a poor fit realization (on both sides) with my visa being completed at the same time. it was also treated as at-will employment. my contract said I could be let go anytime for any reason. no novelty there..
1.
should I seek 2 months pay instead of settling for what I worked for? What are my chances of winning (would you pursue this)? honestly? I don't speak Japanese and am not sure its worth my time..
2.
the email response I am dreading to write... what should I say? I still don't know what they are doing asking me for my visa issue date and ARC copy? should I flat out ask HR why they need this or just tell them I will bring my arc copy when I get my pay?
3.
my arc...
my arc has my new address, which they don't have yet. I don't want them having any of my personal information if I can help it.
also my arc was never updated with the company info on the backside. I was never legal nor did I get the time to change it at the local office anyway. by requesting my 'latest arc copy' does the company mean they expect their information on the back of my arc card?
what are they seeking from my 'latest arc' that they need 'ASAP'? |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| stumptowny wrote: |
my arc has my new address, which they don't have yet. I don't want them having any of my personal information if I can help it. |
You're right to be guarding this info.
Ask them politely what they need it for. If they give you a reason that is legit (and I can't think of one where they would need that much info) then fine. Otherwise, politely decline. If they claim any legal obligation on your part, ask them to direct you to the law that says that you must give them the info. They are no longer you employer so they can't make you do anything.
| Quote: |
also my arc was never updated with the company info on the backside. I was never legal nor did I get the time to change it at the local office anyway. by requesting my 'latest arc copy' does the company mean they expect their information on the back of my arc card?
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Now this is a problem.
You are supposed to register any changes to the info on your card within 14 days. But forgetting the employer info for the moment, did you register your new status of residency with the city hall?
Just wondering because you should have filled out a form that requested your employer info, so it doesn't make sense that you could have registered as a resident with a work visa and not had to tell them who your employer was. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:58 am Post subject: |
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First and foremost, apologies to stumptowny for calling him ScottishGringo. Yes, I confused the names when I wrote, but thankfully only the names.
| stumptowny wrote: |
| that's exactly how it went down. it was that timing aligned. a poor fit realization (on both sides) with my visa being completed at the same time. |
You can see it that way. I choose not to.
| stumptowny wrote: |
| my contract said I could be let go anytime for any reason. no novelty there.. |
Not necessarily. Lots of employers these days try to insert clauses that teachers must give 3-6 months' notice. Many at least want one month. IMO, your employer knew you were working illegally, perhaps didn't know if you'd get a work visa, and decided that rather than be responsible for an untested teacher, he'd provide an escape clause.
The fact that he says you can be "let go anytime for any reason" is illegal. Get that through your head!
| seklarwia wrote: |
Quote:
He uses the word "principal", so I don't think it is an eikaiwa.
He also talks about revenue being the main focus and childcare dressed up as education... doesn't exactly sound like any public or private school. |
Kindergarten, then? We can speculate endlessly here, and until he gets paid and feels comfortable telling us, or reveals it in a PM, it will remain a secret. Since when is revenue not on a public school's mind, anyway?
| seklarwia wrote: |
| I'm talking about the public perception of school if their dodgey hiring practices became general knowledge. Not sure how you drew that meaning from what is written. |
Ok, got it. I thought your parenthetical aside was for thoughts about only stumptowny. But, I wonder if staff/students would actually think the illegally hired teachers would be so shady as to be "involved in" crimes. That's where your post lost me. Either way, we agree that if this ever comes to light, people will wonder about the reputation of the school.
| stumptowny wrote: |
| also my arc was never updated with the company info on the backside. |
How did you ever get an ARC in the first place if you didn't have a visa or status of residence to stay beyond 90 days? |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Kindergarten, then? We can speculate endlessly here, and until he gets paid and feels comfortable telling us, or reveals it in a PM, it will remain a secret. Since when is revenue not on a public school's mind, anyway? |
Well Stump said:
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The job was not about teaching, it was about revenue. The revenue method used was childcare under the guise of learning.
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... now a kindergarten is childcare, so it doesn't make sense that the OP would be under the impression that it should be anything but.
And since when do ALTs get directly involved in or even notice the revenue side of public schools? Since when are public schools not about learning? It's got eikaiwa plastered all over it.
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| But, I wonder if staff/students would actually think the illegally hired teachers would be so shady as to be "involved in" crimes. That's where your post lost me. |
Who cares what the staff think? It's the parents and students that matter.
Substitute "illegally hired teachers" with "illegal immigrants" and see what images that conjures up. Now imagine that that those illegal immigrants are being left alone with your child. I know what some of the Japanese locals think about illegal immigrants. Quite similar to what we believe about illegals in Europe actually. And it's amazing how when you add kids to the mix, imaginations tend to go into overdrive... oh, the endless possibilities of nightmares. |
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stumptowny
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| stumptowny wrote: |
my arc has my new address, which they don't have yet. I don't want them having any of my personal information if I can help it. |
You're right to be guarding this info.
Ask them politely what they need it for. If they give you a reason that is legit (and I can't think of one where they would need that much info) then fine. Otherwise, politely decline. If they claim any legal obligation on your part, ask them to direct you to the law that says that you must give them the info. They are no longer you employer so they can't make you do anything.
| Quote: |
also my arc was never updated with the company info on the backside. I was never legal nor did I get the time to change it at the local office anyway. by requesting my 'latest arc copy' does the company mean they expect their information on the back of my arc card?
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Now this is a problem.
You are supposed to register any changes to the info on your card within 14 days. But forgetting the employer info for the moment, did you register your new status of residency with the city hall?
Just wondering because you should have filled out a form that requested your employer info, so it doesn't make sense that you could have registered as a resident with a work visa and not had to tell them who your employer was. |
I registered my change of address when I first moved to my new location. I think I did that during gw. I have done nothing since getting my visa however. I never had the time to during the 14 days.
So now if I go to the city hall, will they ask for the employer info to put that on the card or just the new visa information on the card? I want nothing from this past job attached to me whatsoever. Not working there, it's moot to put my job on info on the card unless they absolutely need to tie the visa with the company?
Glenski: I first got my arc because I was planning on staying longer than 90 days. I presented my passport, they questioned me about degrees, teaching, my plans, and that was it. it was easy to get.
I am going to draft my email response and post it for you guys to tweak if you could.. basically I have no obligation and can treat the response as such, correct? along the lines of... I will give you the information when I come in to get my final payment.
or should I ask why they want this information first, putting me in a more defensive posture? I like the idea of telling them, just wait (calling their ASAP bluff) but I don't know if it is a bluff?
Is there a chance the company can get n trouble for not having my info?
You guys are amazing, thank you for your support, and whatever nicknames you want to call me. They are pretty funny actually.. |
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-chris
Joined: 09 May 2011
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:56 am Post subject: |
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I've heard a lot of people saying that ALTs in public schools (esp those hired through dispated companies) got fired like every month or every day!!
Could someone say something about this? Is it still happening in Japan every day?
I have decided to come over to Japan before but after reading so many stories plus this vivid one, I may have to re-consider whether I should come or not.
Just some information for your reference:
http://fukuoka.generalunion.org/alt/index.html
In the first video(fourth one from bottom) at 6:40, parents and children (primary 4 to 6) from different schools were invited. They were asked two questions:
1st question was : has there been any replacement of ALTs over the last one year in your school
2nd question: The highest no. of replacements you can remember in that year in your school. The first child replied 7 - 8; the second one (girl) said about 5 or more!!!
A story more STUNNING than the recent devastating earthquake isn't it? 
Thanks!
Teresa
Last edited by -chris on Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
... now a kindergarten is childcare, so it doesn't make sense that the OP would be under the impression that it should be anything but.
And since when do ALTs get directly involved in or even notice the revenue side of public schools? Since when are public schools not about learning? It's got eikaiwa plastered all over it. |
Since when does an eikaiwa have a principal?
Let's just be patient and see what stumptowny tells us when it is all said and done.
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| Quote: |
| But, I wonder if staff/students would actually think the illegally hired teachers would be so shady as to be "involved in" crimes. That's where your post lost me. |
Who cares what the staff think? |
If the OP ever felt he needed to go to court on this, the staff would be prime witnesses to the fact that he was there working before his visa was issues, that's why. But we're not going to see that happen.
| Quote: |
| Substitute "illegally hired teachers" with "illegal immigrants" and see what images that conjures up. Now imagine that that those illegal immigrants are being left alone with your child. I know what some of the Japanese locals think about illegal immigrants. Quite similar to what we believe about illegals in Europe actually. And it's amazing how when you add kids to the mix, imaginations tend to go into overdrive... oh, the endless possibilities of nightmares. |
That kind of thinking is not what most Japanese will think, I believe. Oh, probably the governor of Tokyo, but few others. I don't think people are going to have feelings of dread over the illegal teacher (What? Doing inappropriate things with the kids? No way!), so much as being upset over the poor business management by the principal and school.
| stumptowny wrote: |
| I registered my change of address when I first moved to my new location. I think I did that during gw. I have done nothing since getting my visa however. I never had the time to during the 14 days. |
It doesn't matter that you didn't have time. You could have told your employer that you needed by law the time to do that!
Realistically, the folks down at the ward office will only nod and make the necessary changes if you go there late and apologize. Not much else they will really feel they can do, anyway. You won't be dragged away in chains, if that's what you're thinking.
| stumptowny wrote: |
| I want nothing from this past job attached to me whatsoever. |
Too late. They are your current visa sponsor, and there is a record of that with immigration.
| stumptowny wrote: |
| Is there a chance the company can get n trouble for not having my info? |
You shouldn't care about this at all. It's over and done with. They should have asked you for it the moment you told them about the visa arriving.
| -chris wrote: |
I've heard a lot of people saying that ALTs in public schools (esp those hired through dispated companies) got fired like every month or every day!!
Could someone say something about this? Is it still happening in Japan every day? |
I'd say that's an exaggeration. However, there are a lot of cases where they get rotated out of a school, as that video describes. (seen it before and was going to cite it for you, but you're a step ahead) |
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stumptowny
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:08 am Post subject: my email response... |
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Below is my response. Please, by all means, tell me what you would change what you like. Another approach is just to write back asking why they need this information...
Hello (name),
I was fired. I did not quit. Confirm this with (principal).
Thank you for telling me the transportation amount owed to me. Please include the transportation amount with my final cash salary payment, which I will be receiving (date).
I will be picking up my final payment from the (location) on (date) so please instruct that person to include the transportation amount with the final salary amount.
My work visa was issued the same day I went to the immigration office, (date). I can bring my ARC card on (same day date I pick up my money) but no changes have been made to this card. The ARC copies you and (person) have now are still valid and accurate.
Have a great June and July! Thank you for all your help.
You are so kind... |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| -chris wrote: |
1st question was : has there been any replacement of ALTs over the last one year in your school
2nd question: The highest no. of replacements you can remember in that year in your school. The first child replied 7 - 8; the second one (girl) said about 5 or more!!!
A story more STUNNING than the recent devastating earthquake isn't it?
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OT- I'm guessing (hoping) that you weren't serious there, but I have to answer anyway- no, not even close, and it's kind of bad taste to compare a few ALTs being replaced with the devastation that occurred here. |
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