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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| jibbs wrote: |
"Qualified? Ha! This is China! The vast majority of all foreign teachers never taught a thing before coming here."
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I agree. There are a lot of tourists here on paid vacation.
Some use class time for a stand up routine to satisfy their need for an audience.
Some use class time to stage a personal psychodrama.
Some actually have a sense of class procedure and decorum and spend the students' time productively. These become good teachers because the class allows them the time to research the subject, and to learn it. Degree or not, these teachers eventually become quite effective. |
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Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Salvatore wrote: |
Mr. Al,
I've "taught" in China for 7 years. I know what I'm doing = entertaining kids for peanuts. In my opinion, unless you work at an International school or teach a subject other than "Oral English", foreigners aren't really "teaching". Granted, if you have a class of English majors, then an Oral English class is much more satisfying, even at a 3rd rate private college.
How can you "teach" Oral English? I see the job as Facilitating = get the students talking. Bear in mind, most of my experience in China has been in universities.
I'll admit, my last job has left an unpleasant taste in my month which has only intensified because of things which have happened the past month. Call me jaded.
Briefly, I worked for a 3rd rate private college in Guangdong this past year. The students could hardly say Yes or No, let alone complete a sentence.
The day that we were to begin the Final exam/chat (I talk to 2 students at a time while the others watch a movie) I changed the plan after the first pair. Basically, I asked the 1st girl - "What is your name?" She looked at me dazed and confused and her friend had to translate. The 1st girl then said with a smile "My name is Winnie Wang." (she seemed proud of herself). I then asked her - "Where are you from?" Again, a blank stare and another translation. I then said - "Ok, you're done." Then, I asked the 2nd girl, who didn't come to class often - "Why do you deserve a good grade?" She said - "My English is poor. I like to listen to you!" (Believe me, it didn't come out so easy). The 1st girl then asked - "What is my grade? Give me a good score."
At that point I changed the plan and went into class and gave a 1 hour speech about why there wouldn't be a Final because none of them deserved to pass. I clearly wrote on the board - "No Final Exam, everyone passes." After class 2 girls walked up to me and asked - "When is the final?"!!!!
For the record, during the term I once wrote several numbers on the board and most (98%) of the university students who have been taking English classes for around 10 years couldn't say the number in English.
In another class I brought some fruit. Most could say apple. Most couldn't say banana. As I typed - this past year has been hell. I could go on, or, you can read what was written about Huashang College in Zengcheng.
The best part is, the next 2 classes I played a movie and said, as well as wrote on the board, "Everyone passes with a 71. If you want to talk to me and get a higher score, come outside and talk to me." Out of 1000+ students, perhaps 50 spoke to me. The other 950 or so were happy with their 71's.
To top it off, some students said I was a bad teacher because I didn't play movies or sing songs! All they want/paid me for is to a glorified babysitter. Again - "teaching" in China is joke.
I won't bore you with the details of what has happened since a school that offered me a job in April sent me an email on May 31st saying they were sorry, the job was no longer available because the "teacher" I was to replace changed his mind and decided to return! Thanks Winnie Wang at Zhaoqing University, you're a sweetheart.
Again, "teaching" in China is a joke. It's fun, but not really real. |
...but you're not helping things by passing everybody! |
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Sophisticate
Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:23 am Post subject: Excellent! |
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Last edited by Sophisticate on Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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This thread is a good reminder of how not to get into English teaching in China.
No matter how qualified you are or how attractive the higher paying jobs, you really do need a first year in the least hassle situation you can find for your first gig.
IMHO the basics are:
*Public university or college.
*Track record of hiring FTs and even some who have re signed for a further year.
*Accom on campus
*No smaller than a second level eastern seaboard provincial centre
*Access to previous FTs.
*No fewer than 4 other FTs on staff.
*Airfare allowance of RMB10K which ex FTs can vouch as being paid.
*No less than RMB4500 pm and max 20 teaching hours.
*Teaching Oral English - you'll always have motivation issues but not plagiarism.
*Within 30 mins bus ride of a reasonable Western goods supermarket. |
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Sophisticate
Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:36 am Post subject: Right on the mark, Salvatore! |
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| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| Salvatore wrote: |
Mr. Al,
I've "taught" in China for 7 years. I know what I'm doing = entertaining kids for peanuts. In my opinion, unless you work at an International school or teach a subject other than "Oral English", foreigners aren't really "teaching". Granted, if you have a class of English majors, then an Oral English class is much more satisfying, even at a 3rd rate private college.
How can you "teach" Oral English? I see the job as Facilitating = get the students talking. Bear in mind, most of my experience in China has been in universities.
I'll admit, my last job has left an unpleasant taste in my month which has only intensified because of things which have happened the past month. Call me jaded.
Briefly, I worked for a 3rd rate private college in Guangdong this past year. The students could hardly say Yes or No, let alone complete a sentence.
The day that we were to begin the Final exam/chat (I talk to 2 students at a time while the others watch a movie) I changed the plan after the first pair. Basically, I asked the 1st girl - "What is your name?" She looked at me dazed and confused and her friend had to translate. The 1st girl then said with a smile "My name is Winnie Wang." (she seemed proud of herself). I then asked her - "Where are you from?" Again, a blank stare and another translation. I then said - "Ok, you're done." Then, I asked the 2nd girl, who didn't come to class often - "Why do you deserve a good grade?" She said - "My English is poor. I like to listen to you!" (Believe me, it didn't come out so easy). The 1st girl then asked - "What is my grade? Give me a good score."
At that point I changed the plan and went into class and gave a 1 hour speech about why there wouldn't be a Final because none of them deserved to pass. I clearly wrote on the board - "No Final Exam, everyone passes." After class 2 girls walked up to me and asked - "When is the final?"!!!!
For the record, during the term I once wrote several numbers on the board and most (98%) of the university students who have been taking English classes for around 10 years couldn't say the number in English.
In another class I brought some fruit. Most could say apple. Most couldn't say banana. As I typed - this past year has been hell. I could go on, or, you can read what was written about Huashang College in Zengcheng.
The best part is, the next 2 classes I played a movie and said, as well as wrote on the board, "Everyone passes with a 71. If you want to talk to me and get a higher score, come outside and talk to me." Out of 1000+ students, perhaps 50 spoke to me. The other 950 or so were happy with their 71's.
To top it off, some students said I was a bad teacher because I didn't play movies or sing songs! All they want/paid me for is to a glorified babysitter. Again - "teaching" in China is joke.
I won't bore you with the details of what has happened since a school that offered me a job in April sent me an email on May 31st saying they were sorry, the job was no longer available because the "teacher" I was to replace changed his mind and decided to return! Thanks Winnie Wang at Zhaoqing University, you're a sweetheart.
Again, "teaching" in China is a joke. It's fun, but not really real. |
...but you're not helping things by passing everybody! |
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mightylakarose
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 12
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:14 am Post subject: hgf |
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I know that at the 3 tier private college I 'taught' English at, it did not matter if they pass or fail my exam. If you pay the tuition, you pass your English class. Most students didn't even bother to show up.
That said, I don't think you could say that ALL English teaching jobs in China are a joke. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:35 am Post subject: |
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That's what I liked about my state vocational college which prepared students for jobs that were 'foreign facing'.
They could see a direct relationship between English and the job/career/salary they would get.
Not all, by any means, made a big effort to learn, but enough to keep me encouraged. |
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cormac
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 768
Location: Xi'an (XTU)
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| MisterButtkins wrote: |
I'd agree with Jibbs, although I don't know about the 'vast majority'. Of the 15 or so foreigners who work at my school I think 4 or 5 had teaching experience before coming to China. Most of the foreigners who I meet in bars didn't have any teaching experience before moving here. I will say I'm continually puzzled when people ask about qualifications on this board and someone comes on and says you must have 2 years experience and a TEFL, since that just doesn't seem to be the case at all in reality. |
I'm in my 2nd year teaching in China (Kinder first, now Uni level) and when it comes to Oral English, considering what we're being asked/told to teach, there's not a whole lot of need for prior teaching experience... [in fact, I find my managerial experience to be extremely useful in managing and understanding my students needs]
Saying that.. I've met teachers here with the full set of educational qualifications, have had their teaching practice etc, and they have the personality of dense matter. They can't get beyond grammar, and while their students are well versed in the structures of the language, they're unable to actually speak the language with any degree of confidence.
Whereas the teachers with no prior experience learn on the job, actually look for information online and you can see/hear their students improving with their English ability.
I don't see my job as an Oral English Teacher to teach grammar. Chinese Uni students have had grammar to death already, and actually understand it better than I do. My job is to teach them confidence, teach them how/when to use vocabulary, and to teach them to be able to re-assess their own abilities. I also see my job to demolish all those weird ideas they've picked up about foreigners, and bring some realism into their fantasies about the "west".
TBH though most of the teachers I know with formal education related qualifications are not teaching oral english. They're doing something a lot more formal where such in-depth qualifications are needed. Oral English doesn't need those qualifications although I am seriously thinking of getting a degree in Linguistics (I have two business related degrees, and certs in Psychology and NLP). Some form of education or prior experience with pronounciation would have been extremely useful. |
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haller_79
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Although if those boring teachers with qualifications decide to bail on China they'll still be employable when they get home. |
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cormac
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 768
Location: Xi'an (XTU)
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| haller_79 wrote: |
| Although if those boring teachers with qualifications decide to bail on China they'll still be employable when they get home. |
I'm very employable back home. Firstly I can still teach at institute level (like colleges in some countries) and in some universities based on my business degrees and my experience both in teaching and otherwise. Secondly I could always return to business work.
Don't assume that people can't teach in their own countries because they don't have pure educational qualifications. There are plenty of disciplines where other qualifications and experience count just as much. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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While I mostly agree with cormac, I do find that the short communicative ESL course I completed before my first China job was helpful.
When I got to Director of Teaching level and had to sit in on non-qualified teachers classes it came in handy. Not one (unaided) had come up with the notion that oral means 'student oral' not 'teacher oral'.
Blathering away reading from the textbook, or asking questions and then immediately supplying answer were particular issues. Also I have to say the sheer teflon-coated 'I'm (nationality), I have a degree and I speak English. What else do I need to know?' mindset was very depressing.
Having a simple technique like Teacher Talk Time (TTT) analysis helped me get the idea across.
So, even if you don't have an ESL qual, do use the internet to get some of the basics about lesson planning, TTT etc and you'll be doing everyone a favour. |
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peewee1979
Joined: 30 Jun 2011
Posts: 167
Location: Once in China was enough. Burned and robbed by Delter and watching others get cheated was enough.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I will tell you that maybe China isn't for everyone and rethink your plan. |
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cormac
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 768
Location: Xi'an (XTU)
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
| So, even if you don't have an ESL qual, do use the internet to get some of the basics about lesson planning, TTT etc and you'll be doing everyone a favour. |
Oh when I was talking about the more formal educational related qualifications I wasn't talking about getting a basic tefl cert. I have a very basic tefl cert. Gave me the introduction to TTT etc but when it comes to teaching practice it was next to useless.
But I would expect most foreign teachers to have gotten some form of tefl cert before teaching.. Although I must admit I did my first year teaching kinder without such. I got the tefl because it made getting uni gigs easier to get.
| peewee1979 wrote: |
| I will tell you that maybe China isn't for everyone and rethink your plan. |
Funnily enough I think it is for everyone as long as you leave all your expectations for home comforts behind. The only people I know here (or have left in disgust) that China wasn't suitable for them, simply because they expected China to provide the same level of comfort and convenience as their home country. So the were annoyed all the time, took that annoyance out on everyone and then wondered why they were having so much problems making friends or such.
IF people accept that China is an amazingly different country and even more importantly an immeasurably different culture then China can easily be suitable for them. In the Short term (1-3 years). The long term affects everyone differently. |
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peewee1979
Joined: 30 Jun 2011
Posts: 167
Location: Once in China was enough. Burned and robbed by Delter and watching others get cheated was enough.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm reflecting on my totally disgusting experience working for Delter so maybe I am a little biased in my feelings for China and the way schools are allowed to cheat their teachers with the guest teacher having no real legal recourse to defend themselves. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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For FTs, teaching English on mainland China is more of a hassle than before. It's more controlled by local experts, more paperwork, less respect from some local staff members and/or students, and then if you decide to change employers within the city or even the county, you'll more likely depend on your last employer's evaluation of you. Understandably, the industry was a mess before, but the recent attempts to organize it were/are just slaps in FTs faces.
To give an advice, i'd say look anywhere in the country. Do not focus on one location but on the offers and the ways they are presented to you. Then, once in, be selective in requesting support, or you may overwhelm your employer or his/her staff. Whichever level of education you get into, try your best to be popular. If staff members and students like you, you'll get away with murder.  |
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