Job Discussion Forums

[Noelle]

Hi everyone

It's been awhile since I've popped by this forum. I am teaching in a university based IEP in California and our school attracts HUNDREDS of Saudis here on the SACM scholarship.

Anyhow, I have a unique situation recently-- in one of my writing classes I have a husband and wife side by side who are both known to be "troublemakers" in our program. I don't mean troublemakers in a sense that they disrupt class or disregard work and assignments. Rather they have become somewhat notorious among students, teachers and admin for being insubordinate and manipulative.

These two are ultra-conservative Muslim (something I, as a Christian completely respect) and they have very little use for other students around them, including their fellow Saudis. They are not rude or brash in any way, but they are very exclusive.

Many teachers have complained about them over the past 6 months and I suspect, as they are the same fluency level, they are intentionally taking classes together and sharing copied materials, which is against the rules. I also suspect they are cheating, even though I think both of them are capable of producing quality work without having to cheat.

They sit together in my class and I am considering trying to separate them. I'm not really sure how that will go over but as the teacher, I do have control over where students sit, especially in a writing class, and I know that admin will support me.

The wife is in another one of my classes as well and I have already received a complaint from another student about her. The student feels intimidated and judged and also said that the wife is extremely opinionated and does not want to listen to anyone else.

I've heard very similar stories about the husband from other teachers and based on my observations, I can believe it. Several of my co-workers have even gone so far as to hint that these two could be potentially militant, based on the way they've behaved.

So here are my questions:

1. Do I dare try to separate these two in the class that they share with me?

2. I have to speak to the wife about the complaint I received, but I'm not sure how to go about it without offending her. At the moment, she and I have a very good student-teacher relationship, however superficial it may be...

3. I am tempted to assign a writing topic (a narrative essay) that draws on some sensitive background information and convictions of the students for the purpose of trying to flesh out more of how these two conservative Saudi students feel about the West. Good idea or bad idea??

Any and all feedback here would be greatly appreciated!!

[desertdawg]

Why seperate them? Sounds like they are better off together.Putting them with other students would have a negative impact on the other students.

Talking to the lady? Don't be confrontational. Try to make her understand that it is in her interests to be more cooperative in a group setting. Life skills etc

Sensitive issues? Tread carefully. I think you get a feel in individual cases. Sounds like these individuals would not respond well. I remember two instances with bearded ones. The first case involved me mistakenly showing the guys a relatively "racey" training video. The guy reacted very well when he could have made a lot of trouble for me. With another student, he actually took great delight in whipping up revolt in the class. He had some authority over the others and used this in a negative way.

I would treat them as individuals first and try and respect their ways. When confronted by these type of people I always make a big thing of not avoiding subjects, but showing a genuine interest in their different life style. However you can't pump them for info or force the issue. They have to give their opinions willingly and openly in a classroom setting.

It's all getting a bit ponsy. But the environment should be supportive and non-threatening. Setting up some kind of discussion that would allow everyone to share their opinions might be good.

Having said all the above though, some folk are just a bit weird and better left to it.

[spiral78]

Because Noelle is teaching in the US, not in Saudi, I'd disagree to some extent with DesertDawg's view (no doubt totally valid advice, if the classroom in question were in Saudi).

Noelle's got the school admin behind her, and I presume her classroom features a mix of nationalities - correct?

I would try to separate them, but I'd want to give them notification in advance of this (perhaps the class before) and a pedagogical reason for it. Perhaps pair/team process writing, in which feedback from peers is used, and the feedback from someone with a different L1 from the writer's is most valuable. You could also point out that the wife's feedback on another students' English would be useful to that student, in addition to what she would receive in such an exchange. Most people are flattered at least a bit at the suggestion they can help others.

On the issue of the problem, perhaps begin by telling her what you expect her to think. "I need to tell you about this problem that was reported to me, because of course you (as a good student) will want to know so that you can avoid.....in future. It can also be language related - perhaps tell her that you're sure to come across as arrogant and dismissive wasn't her intent, and remind her about words/phrases such as 'you could' 'it might be helpful if' 'you may want to think about'. Handling the problem from a language perspective keeps in the valid realm for your working relationship.

So far as writing topics and how they might reveal background intent - I'd also be tempted, so long as it's handled even-handedly over the entire group. I can recall a Pakistani student once who wrote extensively on the topic of why arranged marraiges are desirable (fair enough). You could perhaps assign simply a 'sensitive topic,' and explain that it's to focus on persuasive language - which you could review in advance. I've let students make topic proposals in advance of writing, so that I can keep some control over what actually appears in class, though.

Obviously, you're in a sensitive situation and need to tread carefully, and I can't be sure my take on your situation would really be appropriate!! Just for what it may be worth....

I'd be very interested how this situation plays out - do keep us posted!

[Insubordination]

Don't poke the bear.

[veiledsentiments]

[johnslat]

Although I understand spiral's reasoning, I agree more with Insubordination and veiledsentiments.

"These two are ultra-conservative Muslim (something I, as a Christian completely respect) and they have very little use for other students around them, including their fellow Saudis."

I've had a lot of experience with these types (well, not the female version, but I suspect there's not a lot of relevant difference.)

Regards,
John

[Noelle]

Well, it appears another teacher has beaten me to the punch.

The admin has apparently already warned these two that one more write-up will result in dismissal from the program. The husband said that if the wife is dismissed, he will leave. And I doubt that she will stay without him.

As for the civil confrontation I'd planned with her today, I am relieved to report that it didn't happen since she and her husband were both absent.

Some teachers have told me that my "open Christian" stance on things has made some of these students see me as a sympathizer, which to a degree, I think is true. I tend to share a lot of their conservative values. The wife is definitely more friendly and talkative to me than she is to anyone else. I'm worried though that students such as these will assume I am "soft" somehow and that I will make provisions for them rather than adhere to the rules and policies of the school.

So I guess I won't be "in it" with them for long when I have to be the one writing them up for some sort of infraction!

I'll post more after these two have returned to class next week...

And to answer a previous poster's question-- yes, the class is very much mixed nationality. This particular writing class is made up primarily of Asian and Latin American students as many of the Saudis previously on my roster decided to drop the class.

[It's Scary!]

I've watched this conversation for a while now. When I have ANY difficulties with ANY of my oil-rich Gulf Arabs, I IMMEDIATELY inform them that they're in "my sandbox now". When I was in their "sandbox", I was required to follow their customs/rules/ad hoc requirements. Life is a two-way street. Now that they are in MY "sandbox", they will conform to MY requirements and follow MY cultural norms of successful learning.

I worked nearly as long as johnslat in that culture, so know "how" to speak to them. But, the bottom line is, in their Hadith (sayings of the Prophet [PBUH]), a "teacher is like a prophet. Is this any way to treat a prophet? Would you treat your teachers back home this way?"

They become instantly humbled.

The problem is, you have got to have authenticity to make this work.

It's Scary!

[mashkif]

[Middle East Beast]

Yes, outstanding!

MEB

[sinee]

Very well said, and I agree 100%

[caliph]

You're in America and you don't have to put up with their BS like in SA. Either they shape up, or ship them out.

[JohnCB]

[It's Scary!]

Of course, all of this is done in a non-confrontational, culturally-sensitive manner. Getting "in their face" will lose the battle. Slow and gentle, but firm and uncompromising whilst seeming to compromise is the road to travel.

It's Scary!

[Noelle]

They were both back in class today and they were just fine. No need for confrontation.

Yet....