Job Discussion Forums

[eurobound]

[Sashadroogie]

A point of view which articulates the underlying political cause of the violence.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/08/201189165143946889.html

[reddevil79]

[eurobound]

Vigilantism is probably not a good idea. Having said that, where does protection of property end and vigilantism begin?
My two pennies; if you want to stand guard outside your mosque, or your sikh temple, your church, kebab shop, or jewellery store, in an effort to protect what is rightfully yours, fill your boots.

You'll get no grief from me on the matter. Though the Metropolitan Police apparently take another view. And the fact that they themselves have not the resources to protect you apparently doesn't change a thing.

[johnslat]

Street Fighting Man: 1968: Rolling Stones

Well, it's not "sleepy London town" in August 2011, and it seems there are lots of places are "a street fighting man" (or woman.)


Everywhere I hear the sound of marching, charging feet, boy
Cause summers here and the time is right for fighting in the street, boy
But what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
Cause in sleepy london town
There's just no place for a street fighting man
No

Hey! think the time is right for a palace revolution
But where I live the game to play is compromise solution
Well, then what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
Cause in sleepy london town
There's no place for a street fighting man
No

Hey! said my name is called disturbance
Ill shout and scream, I'll kill the king, I'll rail at all his servants
Well, what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
Cause in sleepy london town
There's no place for a street fighting man
No

Regards,
John

[eurobound]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/08/10/birmingham-riots-father-of-hit-and-run-victim-pleads-for-calm-115875-23335369/

Haroon Jahan. 21 years old. His crime; protecting a petrol station from looters. His punishment; death.

Just to put things in perspective.

[johnslat]

Dear eurobound,

Lord, what an admirable and incredible response from the family:

"This evening the grieving father once again appealed for there to be no revenge for his son's death and for the law to be allowed to take its course

Tariq said: "Today we stand here to plead with all the youth to remain calm, for our communities to stand united.

"This is not a race issue. The family has received messages of sympathy and support from all parts of society."

He called on people to "respect the memories of our sons" by bringing a stop to violence.

Visibly emotional, Mr Jahan said: "I lost my son. Blacks, Asians, whites - we all live in the same community.

"Why do we have to kill one another? Why are we doing this? Step forward if you want to lose your sons. Otherwise, calm down and go home - please."

He also urged witnesses to the incident to come forward and give information to police.'

Regards,
John

[eurobound]

[johnslat]

Dear eurobound,

And I totally agree that people have the right to protect their property. I know that I would. But I also know that it could have terrible consequences, either by my having to kill or by my being killed.

So, even though I'd do it - I also have to wonder whether property is really worth the risk.

Regards,
John

[eurobound]

Yeah I know, you raise a good point, is it worth dying for? Every nerve in my body screams no, not at all, not in a million years.

But I, like you, can see why people do it. I don't know if you read that article I posted about the Turks in Dalston earlier today. I read a different article about them in the newspaper this morning.

Part of the article focused on a 29 year kebab shop owner who HAD decided to defend his shop. His reasoning? He had no other choice. That place is his life, his livelihood. If that goes up in flames, goodbye livelihood (for a while at least, but who knows when he can get back up on his feet again; it's not certain insurers are going to pay up on a lot of this stuff.) This man isn't rich, arsonists aren't sticking it to the man if they go after this guy.

On a related point, in the UK I believe the lines are more blurred when it comes to protecting even your own home than they are in the states. There are certain things that you can't get away with that, in reality, maybe you should be able to get away with. Use of reasonable force has been known, in some cases, to land Brits protecting their own home in a lot of hot water. But that's a debate for another day.

[dean_a_jones]

You guys sound like you could use a little light relief:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2011-08/11/content_13094715.htm

[eurobound]

So today I read about a Primary School Teaching Assistant who was up in Court... Then a Scaffolder... And then a Postman...

So unemployment isn't their particular beef, one would assume.

On an related point, I'd be curious to know how many people rioting who don't have jobs actually WANT a job. I'm not tarring them all in that statement, I'd simply be curious to know.

The attitude to work has changed in this country drastically since New Labour took to power and made it an irrelevant issue as to whether many people could find jobs or not.

In many cases, people began to lose interest in working at all. Why? It didn't serve them to. If their circumstances fit, they could often make as much money in one month from benefits as they could from going to work everyday.

Case in point; a few years ago I knew a man who was in no way physically incapable of work. About fifteen years ago when he'd left the Army, he'd been treated for depression, though was undergoing no treatment for that when I knew him and claimed the problem was sorted. He drank too much, but so what, so do a lot of people.

This man, for reasons I never really could fathom, was given a flat to live in in the centre of the city where I was living at the time. A nice, safe area, with a short walk to the city along a lovely street. He didn't pay anything for this flat. Neither did he pay bills. Nothing.

On top of this, he claimed benefits of �800 per month. That figure was tax free.

At the time I was making �15,500 per annum. That's roughly �1,290 per month. I paid about �285 tax in total per month, taking me down to roughly �1,000 at the start of play.

I lived in a tiny flat in (quite) a bad area of town. Lots of drunkards and homeless people often roamed the streets of an evening and although it wasn't exactly the Bronx, there was sometimes a slight feeling of intimidation in the air. I paid �380 for this flat and �65 in council tax every month, so that totalled �445 to be taking off the initial one grand.

Let's forget gas, electricity, and water because the figures weren't fixed and I can't be bothered.

Either way, after rent and council tax, and payments to the government to fund, amongst other more valuable things, my friend's non-working existence, I was left with around �550 a month in disposable income. �250 less than my friend, who took home a tax free figure of �800 each month; without the responsibility of paying rent, council tax, bills etc.

The Labour Government made this possible. It seems to me futile gesture to criticise a new Government for taking away from people that which they should never have been given in the first place. Benefits on mass, to the deserving and the undeserving, have had a dreadful effect on this country, both economically and mentally.

Why should my friend feel the need to go back to work and do something useful with his life when he can simply milk this gravy train for as long as he can?

How should people like me feel, trudging off to work on a morning, returning nine hours later, and all for a disposable income two thirds the size of that belonging to the shiftless and the lazy?

Why not just join them, if you can't beat them?

Well, one reason, obviously, is that you would have to forget about all that oldey worldey stuff about pride, providing for yourself and your family, being a decent, productive member of society, finding some purpose and therefore meaning to your life blah blah blah de blah. All that stuff is for mugs, right? Some of us don't think so.

Benefits to those truly deserving of benefits, by all means. I am not a cruel man and I am capable of great compassion and empathy; in instances where compassion and empathy are what is necessary to solve the problem.

But... With the country in the state it's in, both socially and economically, SOMEBODY...EVENTUALLY...has/had to do something about the benefit system which is dragging this country to its knees (amongst other things that are contributing to our slow decline).

Now, I've never voted Conservative and I'm not David Cameron's biggest fan. As far as I can see, he breaks most of the promises he makes. First it was the Lisbon Treaty, which he promised we would have another vote on, though he knew fine well by the time he got to Office it would be too late for that. Then it was Human Rights Laws passed down to us from the EU that he was going to scrap, only to do an about face on that as well and tell us it was modification he wanted, not scrapping. Countless other things the man has reneged on, too high a number to list here.

But he does seem to be intent on doing something about the benefits system.

And I for one don't blame him for that.

Like many people, I stand by the initial assertion that these riots are devoid of political motivations and were the acts of opportunistic, morally unaware scumbags.

And if a Government turned them into that, look no further than the New Labour Government. And marvel at Harriet Harmann on the telly the other night, banging on about coalition cuts and students fee rises.

[Phil_K]

I often wonder how people manage to claim benefits for so long.

Three months before moving to Mexico, (10 years ago), I stopped working and, although I had the resources to support myself, I registered as unemployed. Why? Just for a laugh, really. I'd paid 20 years NI payments, so why not get something back?

To cut a long story short, I did everything you have to do, selecting job interviews, but somehow I avoided actually going to an interview, and my giro plopped through the letterbox every two weeks.

In the third month...no giro. So I called up the Job Centre. I'd been rumbled. No more money.

So my question is kind of comparable to Eurobound's. How come some slackers seem to be able to claim benefits for ever, and somone who has paid his contribution for years gets cut off after 2 months?

[eurobound]

No idea how some people do it at all.

About a year ago I went on the website and calculated how much I would be entitled to. Can't remember the exact figure but it was akin to pocket money, and not the free ride that my aforementioned friend was able to swing.

There are countless others like him.

[Dedicated]

Thank you, eurobound, for writing such an excellent post, making it perfectly clear to those not familiar with the UK benefits system.

The cause of the riots is the looters: opportunistic, greedy arrogant and amoral young criminals who believe that they have the right to steal, burn and destroy other people's property. There are no extenuating circumstances, no excuses. What they wanted is free money and free goods and so they helped themselves. They were driven by greed, a culture of entitlement, of rights without responsibility,combined with a complete detachment from traditional morality, generalised teenage anger and a sense that anything goes in the current climate.

Why does no one acknowledge that these riots are largely the behaviour of Afro-Caribbean youths? There has been a growth of a violent gang culture in London over the past decade, that has created the conditions for such an outbreak of lawlessness by-predominantly but not all - young, black men who feel no need to abide by the social norms of our city.

There can be no doubt that in the 1950s and 1960s racism and deprivation were reasons for their disaffection, but that cannot be argued now. They have had every opportunity to flourish and many have done so. You cannot solve a problem by making out that it doesn't exist.

I work as a part-time magistrate, and was summoned to work at the magistrates court from Tuesday to deal with those arrested. We worked throughout the night. In the magistrates court, we can only give a maximum 6 month sentence, so many were adjourned and committed to the Crown Court, who have additional powers and can give 10 year sentences for burglary and criminal damage. I dealt with 32 people (all black) who were all employed - a graphic designer; college students; a teaching assistant in a primary school(!); a youth worker; a law student at uni in the 2nd year;.......not exactly the "abandoned" they claim to be.
The "abandoned" have had free education,free school meals, free health care, a free flat with rent paid, unemployment/sickness benefit, no tax, no council tax.....

As for blaming the violence on the "cuts", the cuts will not start until later, mostly September 2012 ! It's too soon to say this - the full implementation of any cuts to local authority services will not be fully felt until next year. However, it may be that because there's been so much talk about police spending cuts, the rioters may have internalised the message that they're less likely to be caught.