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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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In addition to dean's excellent list, we should also keep in mind that cost of living varies a lot from one place to another. Another factor is inexperience in negotiating contracts. I think what's getting people's dander up was the assumption that all FTs who accept a low wage are in some way unqualified or unprofessional.
What people on this board will not take well is the suggestion that most FTs are losers in their home countries, on the run, unprofessional, unqualified, skirt chasers, burnouts or drunks.
Wages have always been a strong topic on this board, and we've been pushing for years for more money. I agree that FTs who accept lower than market wage have a negative effect on others' earnings, but there's not much to be done about it. Career teachers in China are the minority. Most are actually temps or short-termers. The fact that we are a diverse and disconnected crew precludes the idea of any unified course of action. Sure, we've had the idea tossed around of an FTs union, but it's not happening.
Salary non-disclosure has been in every single contract I've signed here. I've also had it in contracts back home. I don't feel it's sinister or abusive. We cannot be compared with public sector workers back home. I am in favor of these clauses, as I've seen first-hand what happens when people start talking salary. Nobody is happy.
At my last job, everyone knew that I made more than they did, just not how much. They constantly complained about it. Never mind that I had 10 years more experience, better qualifications, and had to write all the reports, prepare the exams, do the scheduling, attend the admin meetings, fill in for them if they were sick, liaise with the uni in Canada, deal with problem students and teachers and on and on. I didn't even have the same job title they did.
I will never tell anyone I work with how much I am paid. The employment contract is an agreement between me and my employer; not between me, my employer and my co-worker friends. If you don't like non-disclosure, don't sign the freakin' contract. If you sign it, you agree. Abide by it. Negotiate a contract you're satisfied with and leave it at that.
RED |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
OK posters who are writing huge volumes and flaming me (you now, the ones who want to keep wages down), let's stop the assaults and insults on me and start over: exactly what is your issue? Be clear.
I did as you asked, I showed that there are indeed jobs that pay much more for the same hours. Not good enough?
You're just going out of your way to find fault in me instead of the content of my post.
I got the information I was looking for; now I know why some people take lower-paying jobs.
Again, thanks for the helpful ones, and rotten apples to the flamers. |
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=64792&highlight=fake+degrees+photoshop
Scroll down to the bottom of the page. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Don't you enjoy discussing the topic? Or, is it that you have a real purpose bringing that in with all due respect?
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Lobster;
What people on this board will not take well is the suggestion that most FTs are losers in their home countries, on the run, unprofessional, unqualified, skirt chasers, burnouts or drunks. |
The Implication that most recruiters, that visit teachers discussion forums, are sleazy charlatans, will similarly not be taken well on this board. This is supposedly the FTs forum, isn't it?
| Quote: |
Lobster;
Wages have always been a strong topic on this board, and [u]we'[/u]ve been pushing for years for more money. I agree that FTs who accept lower than market wage have a negative effect on others' earnings, but there's not much to be done about it. Career teachers in China are the minority. Most are actually temps or short-termers. The fact that we are a diverse and disconnected crew precludes the idea of any unified course of action. Sure, we've had the idea tossed around of an FTs union, but it's not happening. |
Forgive my observation but who is WE? The FTs union may be happening right here and right now, if some weren't intently imperceptive. In late 90s, there was large numbers of FTs that had ambitions, although when i returned in 2008 most of them were either gone somewhere, or by a local expert, pushed out of the office.
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Lobster;
Salary non-disclosure has been in every single contract I've signed here. I've also had it in contracts back home. I don't feel it's sinister or abusive. We cannot be compared with public sector workers back home. I am in favor of these clauses, as I've seen first-hand what happens when people start talking salary. Nobody is happy. |
From my very experience in 1996-1999 and from some FTs in early 2000s on mainland China, employment agreements DID NOT have the salary non-disclosure clause. Having worked as a teacher in Canada, I can assure you that my employment agreement had NO secrecy with respect to salary. When people begin the salary chat, they know they are either with a fair or filthy employer.If "nobody is happy", the employer is simply not a fit.
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Lobster;
At my last job, everyone knew that I made more than they did, just not how much. They constantly complained about it. Never mind that I had 10 years more experience, better qualifications, and had to write all the reports, prepare the exams, do the scheduling, attend the admin meetings, fill in for them if they were sick, liaise with the uni in Canada, deal with problem students and teachers and on and on. I didn't even have the same job title they did. |
If you all were professionals there, the reasoning above would have cleared the air most likely.
| Quote: |
Lobster;
I will never tell anyone I work with how much I am paid. The employment contract is an agreement between me and my employer; not between me, my employer and my co-worker friends. If you don't like non-disclosure, don't sign the freakin' contract. If you sign it, you agree. Abide by it. Negotiate a contract you're satisfied with and leave it at that. |
Is this supposed to be some sort of a "freaking" closure on the debate of salary non-disclosure practices/secrecy in the country? FTs negotiations on this particular clause of the contract have become a mission impossible for the unity of local employers out of which most attend their party meetings, and then thanks to the internet they also don't really have to accommodate us.
| GuestBob wrote: |
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| But I still decry low wages, especially now with everything getting more and more expensive as Kev. for example pointed out. |
Could we have a more civil discussion about wages, which draws on personal experience of different parts of China, and then ask for it to be stickied? That might help to raise the profile of this issue a bit for the newbies. |
Yes, but let's hope the poster won't come into the debate with some funny hats statements. You wouldn't want that stickied, would you?
As for wages, different parts of China, in fact, have some differences in terms of salary offers as well as cost of living and inflation. However, the differences are inconsistant and some unreasonable. China is a huge country with an enormous number of large and mid-size cities with local governments that often do their own thing as much as the poorly qualified, experienced and knowledgable local employers do. In China, there is a saying that the skies are high and the emperor is far away. You may find yourself surprised and isolated if it's with respect to your employment expectations or live there.
The rule of law, professional ethics and/or approach to foreigners on a professional level is just difficult to see. This means, that FTs are offered an incompatible salary, that FTs get inadequate support with either too much or little attention on professional level, and that the local standards for FTs evaluation may affect your pocket too. More importantly, this above means that employers around the country take advantage of the situation, "free market", recruiters that have spread like mushrooms, and the internet. If an employer is desperate enough, you'll find it easier to negotiate. However, that's more unlikely these days as there are so many ways to find a pretty white face. After all, our roles are so limited now, which provides the employers with an easier search for FTs too.
So, you may end up with a 18 weekly AC hours 12,000 offer either in Urumuqi or Kunming but then 8,000 offer for the same role in Guangzhou. As i said before, this is an example of two private companies confronting each other, which i've found out from my research although i am unwilling to disclose the names. You may end up with offer of 4,500 monthly for similar role in Guilin, which is full of white faced "professionals" as well as hawkish employers with their foreign charlatans assisting them fully there. You may end up with a professionally compatible 5,000 public school offer in mid-sized cities around China and, yes, it's up to you, if you take it or not. Worth mentioning that some Chinese public schools have begun running private programs, which may adjust your role and/or salary. However, do not expect more respect, professionalism or security there. I am settling for my 15,000 monthly gamble in Guangzhou and i feel great as well as horrible at the same time. But, as GW seems to have suggested, taking a higher paid gig for similar role is always better than taking a lower paid one. If there's a danger of getting screwed, my experiences indicate that it can be on any job on mainland China.
Finally, i appologize for my very long post but given the circumstances and some current debaters on the topic, it is better to keep FTs posted than to withhold posting from them. They should know that their MBAs and experiences could get them 7,000 or 15,000 in the same role or town and that thanks to the wilderness called the job market of mainland China.
Last edited by igorG on Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
| Yes, but let's hope the poster won't come into the debate with some funny hats statements. You wouldn't want that stickied, would you? |
I'd want it "stickied" somewhere!
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Here you are again.
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You said;
Could we have a more civil discussion |
Is that the best you can do as a FT on the topic? |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Another reason for the poor-paying jobs, perhaps, is an influx of non-native speakers with abysmal English skills who try to pass themselves off as English teachers. They have no grasp of colloquial English, their reading comprehension is sub-standard and their ideas are expressed in muddled and ungrammatical sentences.
Perhaps the evil and filthy employers realize that, for their students, this type of teacher is good enough if they can pay them peanuts and abuse them. The poor, abused non-native speaker will then haunt teachers' boards and come to the conclusion that it's infested with recruiters posing as FTs. This belief will be repeated ad nauseum, because they think that reiterating it a thousand times will make it more credible. As long as these second-rate "teachers" manage to weasel their way into the system, there will be second-rate employers willing to take them on. Why pay a real wage for a fake teacher?
RED |
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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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I, for one, am surprised that this thread made it page five without being closed.
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
| The poor, abused non-native speaker will then haunt teachers' boards and come to the conclusion that it's infested with recruiters posing as FTs. |
I firmly believe (my opinion) that there are indeed recruiters posing as English teachers or English teachers whom are also engaged in recruiting.
And I am a native English speaker.
I cannot for the life of me explain why fellow 'English teachers' would want to drive wages down, keep them down, and defend the low wages.
Every English teacher that I have met face-to-face have all said the same thing: wages in China are now too low. (which is why I am going home soon) |
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| If wages being too low is the problem, I wouldn't count on moving home solving it. |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I firmly believe (my opinion) that there are indeed recruiters posing as English teachers or English teachers whom are also engaged in recruiting |
I know that there are and were some recruiters on the board, but they were pretty up front about being recruiters and didn't pose as teachers. As well, some school reps have come here to defend their schools' reputations; again usually being open about who they were. But really, this whole idea that those teachers who state that they are happy are just recruiters posing as teachers is nonsense.
Do I feel that FT wages are too low? Yes, I do. They haven't kept pace with inflation and are not representative of the money generated by the industry. However, there are still quite a few jobs out there that pay $25-$35Us per hour. That's not bad money and is as good as one could make back home without the associated living costs.
By now, you should know that there are myriad reasons why a teacher might accept a low rate of pay. To insist that they act otherwise due to our financial ambitions; well that's going nowhere. Teaching has always been the lowest-paid profession, and many teachers have social motives that transcend monetary gain. I'm not really one of them. Honestly, as long as I can continue to make good coin here I'll stick around. If the well-paying jobs evaporate, I'll head to Japan, Korea or the Middle East and put up with the garbage they throw at you there. Those who want to relax more may head to Thailand or Vietnam.
RED |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
Another reason for the poor-paying jobs, perhaps, is an influx of non-native speakers with abysmal English skills who try to pass themselves off as English teachers. They have no grasp of colloquial English, their reading comprehension is sub-standard and their ideas are expressed in muddled and ungrammatical sentences.
Perhaps the evil and filthy employers realize that, for their students, this type of teacher is good enough if they can pay them peanuts and abuse them. The poor, abused non-native speaker will then haunt teachers' boards and come to the conclusion that it's infested with recruiters posing as FTs. This belief will be repeated ad nauseum, because they think that reiterating it a thousand times will make it more credible. As long as these second-rate "teachers" manage to weasel their way into the system, there will be second-rate employers willing to take them on. Why pay a real wage for a fake teacher?
RED |
Hard to account for such posts but they accumulate and then polarize, deceive readers on purpose. There's a hell lot more fakery on than just the teachers, or shall i say native teachers, isn't there?
| Quote: |
| I know that there are and were some recruiters on the board, but they were pretty up front about being recruiters and didn't pose as teachers. As well, some school reps have come here to defend their schools' reputations; again usually being open about who they were. But really, this whole idea that those teachers who state that they are happy are just recruiters posing as teachers is nonsense. |
The nonsense is that readers ought to believe what the message is saying and don't take this as a flame but the TRUTH which is in the title of this thread.
Were we just discussing low wages? Or, was it the incompatible wages on mainland China we were getting into?
So, let me bring up a very recent quote of a user, who hasn't lived up to his expectations on too
| Quote: |
| Could we have a more civil discussion about wages, which draws on personal experience of different parts of China, and then ask for it to be stickied? That might help to raise the profile of this issue a bit for the newbies. |
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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
| Hard to account for such posts but they accumulate and then polarize, deceive readers on purpose. There's a hell lot more fakery on than just the teachers, or shall i say native teachers, isn't there? |
Everything I have ever posted on Dave's is part of a cunning ploy to funnel prospective customers into one of my many "franchised" Apple stores, is this what you mean by "a lot more fakery"?
Seriously though, I don't have the faintest idea who these supposed recruiters are. igorG, could you post a list please so I know who to watch out for. Based on the posts which I have seen I certainly cannot tell.
Half of all extended discussions seem to degenerate into an aimless spat about "secret agendas"; it's tedious. The only thing interesting about most of them are my jokes about hats. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Reading the above post suggests the writer can be funny and touchy in a rather short period of time. My quote there wasn't directed at the poster from above, however, it would appear it should have been too. Like i said; "Hard to account for such posts but they accumulate....."
Seriously, a writer firstly asks for
| Quote: |
| Could we have a more civil discussion about wages, which draws on personal experience of different parts of China, and then ask for it to be stickied? That might help to raise the profile of this issue a bit for the newbies. |
Then, he tries some sort of a humor addressing me in a single sentence post
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| I'd want it "stickied" somewhere! (with an emoticon of course) |
After that he indicates the thread should have/could have been closed in another single sentence post
| Quote: |
| I, for one, am surprised that this thread made it page five without being closed. (yet another emoticon necessary) |
The point is that why would one ask for a civil discussion about wages that draw on personal experiences in the first place, when he himself contributes little after that.
Let's face it. Some have motives and opportunities to disrupt FTs discussions. Perhaps this topic is difficult for some to accept.
Here is my personal experience with wages, which i have followed up on the request of the above poster. I work for 15,000 montly as a subject teacher in Guangzhou's public sector, athough eventually it's all just the language really. Let me add that i have worked for about half of that salary with similar terms and conditions for three years till last June, also in the same city's public sector. I've seen teachers here doing similar language gigs/terms/conditions for 5,000-7,000 monthly. Moreover, on my follow-up to the request from above, I have mentioned other cities such as Kunming, Urumuqi and Guilin, where salaries variation are to be well noted by FTs. Indicating that FTs ought to look for higher salary offers isn't a crime, is it? But i can see how it may irritate some. Here is my emoticon  |
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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
| Let's face it. Some have motives and opportunities to disrupt FTs discussions. Perhaps this topic is difficult for some to accept. |
Still don't give me that list though do you igorG. Tsk, tsk.
| igorG wrote: |
| Here is my personal experience with wages... |
This is really unusual (in a good way) and interesting because getting 15k in China's public sector is pretty damn rare. Can I ask: are you a qualified secondary school teacher in your home country?
[edit] Whoops! Almost forgot ...  |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| The message indicates; "I want this, I want that, but i have little to give". Maybe some ambitious ones with lower monthly incomes that have been here for longer periods of time can't fill in their pockets for obvious reasons. |
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