Job Discussion Forums

[blackwellben]

[johnslat]

Dear davt,

Have you ever worked in the Kingdom?

"A contract is not a prospect. A contract is a binding agreement and it holds legal force even if it is written on a napkin. And, the contract falls under the jurisdiction of where it was signed and went into effect."

"Everyone needs to protect their interests and be fully knowledgeable in the labor laws of where they are working. Otherwise you get taken advantage of and abused. That's a fact. I never said it would get you a job. But don't let yourself be taken advantage of especially in this day and time."

The reason I ask is that you do seem to be unaware of just how "the law" works (or doesn't, actually) in Saudi Arabia. Blackwellben is quite correct about this:

"The practice of law in Saudi Arabia is unto itself."

Wasta - personal influence/clout - trumps the law every time. And it certain that your employer in Saudi will have a lot more wasta than you do. It really doesn't matter a hoot what your contract "promises." Oh, sure - you can "fight" for your rights. provided you're willing to spend a few years in country illegally and without a job or any money. Or you can hire a "lawyer," take your case to court, and spend a lot more money betting on the very highly unlikely outcome that you'll actually win. Knowing the labor laws" in Saudi can't hurt - as long as you realize that they are largely a work of fiction.

Regards,
John

[It's Scary!]

Be c�reful, John. Your valid, frank, and accurate remarks might offend those on their way to Saudi...so much to the point that they will misrepresent what you have said and have this thread locked!

DO NOT REPORT WHAT PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO HEAR!

It happened a few day ago!

[desertdawg]

JD? Jack Daniels? I prefer G & T.

Theory and practice are two different things. People going to KSA shouldn't expect to have protection through recourse to the law. I'm not trying to be negative, but please have your eyes open.

Where I am there are summer working hours at the moment. Unfortunately these poor guys are still out in the baking heat and due to fasting it's even more ardious for them. Labour Law dictates hours worked and the temperatures you shouldn't be outside in. I can assure you these are not adhered to.

With such visible flaunting, the lot of an EFL teacher is going to be pretty low down on the court list.

Litigation? It's an American thing not a wordwide phenomenon, especially not in KSA. Regulation? Get real.

I think with anywhere you are trusting to luck a lot when starting a new job. I worked for British companies in KSA, but still had problems. Holidays and pay shouldn't be messed with. You need good accommodation. And real day to day help with all the bureaucracy.

To answer the original poster, then yes there are still good employers out there. Don't expect a list. It can also be a very individual thing as well, both on the part of the employee and who he/she deals with in the employing organisation.

I think there are still opportunities, but the rewards have been eroded and the demands are increasing. The balance between those two buckets of gold and sh** aint good.

More importantly now the reality is most jobs are working at the universities and people should be very clear what this entails.

[davt]

I have been to Saudi, refused to work there and would never work there unless I was working for an established American company.

Those of you who responded seem to point out the problems of working in KSA, which answers the the original question. Basically don't go there.
Many people who go there go for the money, which is tax free.
As for the law, from many experiences I have heard the employer will try to push you around and take advantage of the fact that you are a fish out of water. Many people also make the mistake of giving their passport to the employer.

I am not angry or frustrated with any of the responses. they are what I expected. When the insults begin it is telling of the type of people who are involved in the TESOL/TEFL field.
There are quality TESOL teachers out there and quality schools, but they are the minority.

Get a teaching job in your home country you will get far more benefit from it. There are too many knuckleheads in the TESOL/TEFL field.

And, if you do teach overseas, if you wanted to teach at a college or university in the U.S. they only accept resumes from people with experience teaching TESOL at accredited schools. Something to think about

[It's Scary!]

I have to admit, davt, that I felt that you were lumping me in with the Yahoos who seem to populate the present venues of "education" in the KSA. But, upon further reading of your clarification, i couldn't agree more.

It's about time that a spade is called a spade. However, the "spades" out there don't like being uncovered or realize that they're a "spade"!

[blackwellben]

[It's Scary!]

There are many more knuckle-heads than not. You, like I, have something to appreciate. The vast majority do not!

It's just my opinion!

[johnslat]

Dear davt,

"Many people also make the mistake of giving their passport to the employer."

I'm not so sure it can be termed a "mistake." There may not really be any choice in the matter if you want to stay and not be put on the next plane home (at your own expense, of course.)

I worked for a government agency, the Institute of Public Administration, which held onto expat passports. You had to turn in your passport or you would be fired. And, since I was on a work visa and would have required an exit visa to leave the Kingdom anyway (and that exit visa can be acquired ONLY by one's employer,) having my passport would have been useless to me.

Oh - and by the way, I had dozens and dozens of colleagues during my nineteen years there, and, of those, I can recall only one "knucklehead" - and even he wasn't too bad a teacher. He was just a knucklehead.

Regards,
John

[Middle East Beast]

[johnslat]

Dear MEB,

" . . . if your passport has a multiple exit/re-entry visa, then it is infinitely valuable in your possession while in KSA!"

True - but who has to get those multiple exit/re-entry visas for you? I believe it's your employer.

Regards,
John

[Middle East Beast]

Yes, and once it's there, it's good. So you give your passport to your employer to get the multipass (term borrowed from The Fifth Element--great movie!), then you take your passport back from your employer and keep the passport until the multipass expires. Then your employer gets you another multipass, and, well...you understand, I'm sure.

MEB

[johnslat]

Dear MEB,

Of course - presuming you're fortunate enough to have an employer who will give you that multiple exit/re-entry in the first place.

Regards,
John

[blackwellben]

[veiledsentiments]