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simon-in-staffs
Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 13
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 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:45 pm Post subject: Advice on working in China for a Newbie |
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Hi there, just looking for some advice from any old hands of teaching in China.
I am currently studying for my CELTA and after that was strongly thinking about looking for a job in China next summer. However, (not especially on this forum) - I am hearing so many bad stories / negative views, I am just wondering, is it worth it, or are these people being overly negative?
The reason I am thinking of China is it fits in with my teaching background. I currently teach mainly Chinese students (undergrad and postgrad) tourism and hospitality at a small UK university. Also, for the last 4 years, I have helped to run and organise the university's summer school programme where wee teach EAP and help to improve their IELTS scores.
I am looking for a career change. With the current economic situation, many jobs do not look secure / worsening working conditions etc. Anyway, I want to have a break from 3 hour commutes / working 60 hours a week.
Because I teach Chinese students so much, China seems to logical option. I enjoy teaching (subject isn't that impt), so TEFL seems a good idea. With that in mind, I am looking at Chinese universities - because I have 5 years university lecturing experience after doing a PGCE.
Earning mega buck / money isn't that impt, but then again being used a cheap labour is not what I want. I have heard some bad stories about working in Chinese universities - terrible accommodation / staff hating you / teaching something a parrot could do etc.
Anybody got any positive experiences / advice? The way I feel about some of the stories (I could be wrong) - if we are being paid a lot by Chinese standards, then maybe we would take part in meetings / extra curricular activities etc, rather than than doing 2 hours of work a day? or am I being niave?
Any good recommendations of where to work? My university has strong links / recruits many students from SWUN University in Chengdu - heard anything positive?
Thanks
Simon |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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China can be pretty divisive, and also a tough place to live for a lot of people. The culture shock can be pretty strong, especially for those who have not really traveled or lived outside of their own country before. That, coupled with the fact that those who get screwed over are the most likely to shout from the rooftops means that the negative China stories are often the loudest.
Having said that, there are plenty who have been here for a while, or have good things to say about living and working here.
The key is doing your research ahead of time, knowing what to look for, and what to expect when you arrive. If you have managed your expectations well and done a good job looking for the right school and city (for you), then you should be alright. The fact that you are on here asking a year before you would start is a good sign.
There have been some good threads lately you might want to read first:
A thread on what kinds of things you should be looking for in a contract: http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=91394
A thread on working in China (there is a long post on page three that is particularly useful to read): http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=91381
A thread breaking down some offers someone had: http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=90924
A thread trying to get to the reality of the job market here: http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=90934
Most of these posts have different views, some good stories and some bad, so hopefully you will find them useful. Otherwise, stick around here and follow/join in the discussions, and after a while you should have some idea of what kinds of issues people deal with on a regular basis. There are plenty of good expat and ESL sites that deal with either China in general or specific cities that are also worth keeping an eye on. A Google search will bring most of these up, or just follow links once you find a good site and you will no doubt encounter more.
Last edited by dean_a_jones on Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Well if you're looking for professional respect as a teacher, China is not your place. If you are looking for a low-stress, low-hours lifestyle, for modest pay, then it probably is your place. That's IF and only if you find something to like about China in general -- the language or culture or massages or cheap liquor or whatever.
But if you have any professional ego as a teacher, forget it. You are a dancing monkey, that's it. |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| SahanRiddhi wrote: |
| Well if you're looking for professional respect as a teacher, China is not your place...if you have any professional ego as a teacher, forget it. You are a dancing monkey, that's it. |
This is a common misconception in my opinion, and I can only guess this all encompassing viewpoint is based in the experience of the individual. The students here can be quite respectful, as can the teaching staff. You just need to find the right school. It is a bit like suggesting that if you work in McDonalds, you boss is going to treat you like crap and see you as expendable. While I imagine that happens a lot, I am sure there are plenty of others who get the support they need to learn new skills and move up (or move on). I am not made to feel like a dancing monkey in my job.
Now you are not likely to be get the same level of professional respect as you might get as a Professor of History at Oxford or Harvard, but that is apples and oranges anyway. Every role is not as depressing as the above quote suggests.
| Quote: |
| If you are looking for a low-stress, low-hours lifestyle, for modest pay, then it probably is your place. That's IF and only if you find something to like about China in general -- the language or culture or massages or cheap liquor or whatever. |
This certainly can be true, having a reason beyond teaching to be here helps (though cheap booze probably shouldn't be it). One issue that is worth considering is what you want to do after you have been here for a while. Do you see yourself having a career in ESL? If you just want a break, you should think about how you are going to explain it when you want to get back onto a career path back home. A lot of people might view a year or two in China as a chance to bum about and mingle with exotic women, or think you are not taking your career seriously. How you frame a few years out will make the difference. |
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Ariadne
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 960
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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I love teaching at the university level in China. I have taught freshmen, sophomores, seniors, and post-graduates. I don't feel like a dancing monkey, I feel like a teacher. I prepare for my classes, grade homework, write tests... all the usual things that teachers do. I like my students and they seem to like me.
University hours are great. My class hours have ranged from 12 to 16 hours a week. I've never had 'office hours'. I'm off for the summer holiday, Spring Festival, and assorted holidays throughout the year.
I have Western and Chinese friends, but I'm not very needy, so it's no problem for me to spend lots of time on my own. I think it is important to be happy in your own skin and comfortable with your own company to be successful here.
China has some quirks that it takes awhile to get used to, like the widespread reluctance to share information. If you have a hot temper, China could easily make you crazy.
Do your research, check the contract, and talk to other teachers. Expect to encounter some difficulties and resolve to find solutions. Be flexible. Remember that smiling can be very effective.
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simon-in-staffs
Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks you for your comments guys
Dean_a_jones and Ariadne - thanks for the helpful comments.
A number of people have mentioned the culture shock issue. However, after teaching Chinese students for a number of years, certain issues - such as not losing face etc - I have got used to.
Until you go there, you will never know - but I did teach in Ghana for 6 months as a volunteer teacher before I did my PGCE, so it can't be any harder than teaching in a mud hut in the middle of the bush.
I would like to make this a career though. I have been teaching for 6 years now, and am thinking of it more as a change of subject rather than a career in teaching. But that means I do want the experience to help me on in my career. Would love to be head of department in an EFL department somewhere with the chance to do some write / publish..
But thanks for your comments. I will carry on with the resaerch. I'm also going to consider Singapore / Taiwan / Thailand and UAE - but China was my first thought as I have experience of teaching Chinese students |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| simon-in-staffs wrote: |
A number of people have mentioned the culture shock issue. However, after teaching Chinese students for a number of years, certain issues - such as not losing face etc - I have got used to.
Until you go there, you will never know - but I did teach in Ghana for 6 months as a volunteer teacher before I did my PGCE, so it can't be any harder than teaching in a mud hut in the middle of the bush. |
Having had experience with Chinese students who are studying abroad, and having lived in a place radically different from your own country will both definitely help. The culture shock a lot of people face here (in my city, in my experience) is often tied to the little things you would think are easy to deal with--the constant noise, the crowds, the volume level of the people, the differing concepts on what is or isn't polite or rational (i.e. trying to get onto a lift when others have not exited), the constant beeping of motor scooters on the sidewalk behind you, the sounds people make when eating. The list goes on and as they are everyday things, people adjust to them in different ways (or not), but they are very hard to ignore. The fatigue often starts after 6 months or so, though some just struggle from the start.
| Quote: |
| I would like to make this a career though. I have been teaching for 6 years now, and am thinking of it more as a change of subject rather than a career in teaching. But that means I do want the experience to help me on in my career. Would love to be head of department in an EFL department somewhere with the chance to do some write / publish. |
I would look into international schools, they usually pay really well and will probably gain you more success and credibility in the future. You have the PGCE needed to work at them. Yes, you might have to work longer hours, but if you want to make serious career out of this (and one that you can take with you when you leave China) then this is a good option. University teaching, while fun and often easy, can be a bit 'casual' (especially if your students are forced into studying English and it is not their actual major).
In terms of advancement and opportunity, speak to current teachers about what this is like (an FAO can have the tendency to tell you what they think you want to hear, especially if they really want your services). A teacher will be able to give you insight into the FT structure and whether there is a chance for advancement of this nature.
While private schools (and international schools will fit into this category) seem to have their materials and structure sorted, public schools often seem to have just a book or two (as well as some newly arrived, confused and unsure FTs). If you can find a place that has ambitions to provide a good education but is a little unsure of what that means in terms of FTs and their speaking classes, you should find the school appreciates a proactive teacher who is willing to work on materials and support others. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:34 am Post subject: |
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Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
I can't believe you are working 60 hrs. a week, unless willingly anyways. Does Britian not have labour laws in place?
China is getting worse and worse in my opinion, and the only reason I am still here is because my boss made me an offer I can't refuse.
Pay is lousy, and yes, you will be doing exactly as you fear... being used a cheap labour is what we all do because we are all making someone very wealthy otherwise we would not be in such demand.
Yes, you will have the experience of your life. But there are so many factors to consider and not sure why you are not considering other locations as China is kind of the bottom of the barrel unless you land a plum job like in an international school etc.
200+ countries in the world. China is among the most desperate and lowest paying.
Consider your options carefully.
Good luck. |
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bobdaun
Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:15 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Dean_A_Jones. There are some good, serious teaching jobs out there if you really want to find them.
International schools and high schools for Chinese students who are going to study abroad tend to be more serious in their attitude to teaching - after all, their students have to pass international exams, not just the "Congratulations! You completed the course!" certificate from the local language mill.
As a result, their requirements for teachers tend to be higher as well, and so the pay is better. With your PGCE and experience you should have no trouble getting in.
A lot of university jobs are teaching non-English majors who are not really interested. You may end up seeing them for two hours every two weeks, in which case there is not really much you can teach them.
Teaching English majors is usually better, as most of them will have at least some interest in really learning the language and you should see them at least every week, perhaps twice a week.
However, you are unlikely to get a really plum job in a university straight away, they will probably want to test you out for a bit before they give you serious responsibilities, research opportunities, etc.
For example, where I am now I worked for a year basically just doing my own thing with my students. Based on my work during that year the dean gradually gave with more responsibilities (with increased pay) and after a few years now I am in charge of designing the curriculum for the whole department and coordinating research efforts. However, I only ended up doing that because I stuck around and worked it up gradually.
We are actually quite lucky, our university has an active research program and encourages teachers to undertake projects (for which funding is available) and to publish the results, so if you are interested in furthering your career something like that could show that you are really serious about teaching. However, it may take a bit of time to accomplish.
Even so, you can always make the best of any situation. Even if your university doesn't have an active research program, the fact that most places will leave you alone to teach whatever you like however you like gives you plenty of scope to try some teaching experiments on your students and to publish the results.
Here are some links to think about if you are interested in research and publication :
http://www.asian-efl-journal.com/index.php
http://www.chinese-efl-journal.com/
http://iteslj.org/links/TESL/Journals_on_Paper/
http://iteslj.org/links/TESL/Journals_on_the_Web/ |
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| China is getting worse and worse in my opinion, and the only reason I am still here is because my boss made me an offer I can't refuse. |
Bosses are making people offers they can't refuse? Doesn't sound so bad to me. Where do I sign up?
| Quote: |
| Pay is lousy, and yes, you will be doing exactly as you fear...being used a cheap labour is what we all do because we are all making someone very wealthy otherwise we would not be in such demand. |
I'm not going to try to dissect this word-by-word, but something about this statement doesn't seem to gel with the basic law of supply and demand.
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| But there are so many factors to consider and not sure why you are not considering other locations as China is kind of the bottom of the barrel unless you land a plum job like in an international school etc. |
Working for the other guy is always going to be, essentially, the bottom of the barrel, anywhere and in any field. If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
Last edited by SahanRiddhi on Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Miajiayou
Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Posts: 283
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Teaching English majors is usually better, as most of them will have at least some interest in really learning the language
Oh god, I wish. |
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simon-in-staffs
Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:42 pm Post subject: Thanks for the advice |
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Thanks guys for your useful advice and comments.
A number of people have suggested high schools - and if students need to get a good IELTS score to come to study in the UK or the US - then they could be a good option. Its just that I enjoy teaching at a university. I left high school teaching because i didn't really enjoy teaching 11 and 12 year olds who didn't want to be there.
So continuing to teach at university level seems like a good option - but then again, I don't really want to teach a little bit of conversational English to those that don't really want to be there!
However, I quite realistic in that I will have to work my way up to getting a plum job! I have seen some top Chinese universities advertising, but they want 2 years experience of teaching EAP and either a DELTA or a MA in linguistics.
Its just finding the best starting position as I want to make this a sucessful teaching step from one subject to another. So its something to ponder and carry on researching |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Thanks for the advice |
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| simon-in-staffs wrote: |
| ... I left high school teaching because i didn't really enjoy teaching 11 and 12 year olds who didn't want to be there.... |
you must keep in mind that the maturity level of chinese students
is typically 5-8 years lower than their western counterparts. don't
expect university freshmen to be 'little adults.' |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:13 am Post subject: Re: Thanks for the advice |
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| choudoufu wrote: |
| simon-in-staffs wrote: |
| ... I left high school teaching because i didn't really enjoy teaching 11 and 12 year olds who didn't want to be there.... |
you must keep in mind that the maturity level of chinese students
is typically 5-8 years lower than their western counterparts. don't
expect university freshmen to be 'little adults.' |
I don't know when the last time you were around "Western" college freshmen was, but I think the majority of them are about at the same level as there Chinese counterparts. When I was at university I put off the required college writing class until my final year, it was incredible to see how ridiculously inept the first year students were at writing.
Chinese freshmen are little adults, still trying to figure out how to make it on their own, coming out of 12 years (or whatever it is) of compulsory education, and trying to learn what they believe is beneficial to their future. Of course you get you Bush like Harvard students who don't belong. Then you get your students who have no interest in English. I think the problem comes with the required English classes, which are completely unnecessary for more than 90% of the students.
So my best advice to the OP is to make sure you teach in a place and a subject that the majority of students want to be in/study. English majors, collaborative programs, ect. You still get some students whose parents signed them up and have no interest, but the majority will be there willingly and wanting to learn. |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:56 am Post subject: Re: Thanks for the advice |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
| I don't know when the last time you were around "Western" college freshmen was, but I think the majority of them are about at the same level as there Chinese counterparts. When I was at university I put off the required college writing class until my final year, it was incredible to see how ridiculously inept the first year students were at writing. |
I think you are confusing ability to complete academic work with the mental age of the students. Even so, I would be shocked if students in the US entering college had the low level of writing and speaking in English that most first year students here seem to have (as they should, it is a non-English speaking country). Mentally, my students act like they are about 14 or 15--naive, innocent and like they have had very little experience of life outside of a classroom (which is usually the case).
| Quote: |
| Chinese freshmen are little adults, still trying to figure out how to make it on their own, coming out of 12 years (or whatever it is) of compulsory education, and trying to learn what they believe is beneficial to their future. Of course you get you Bush like Harvard students who don't belong. Then you get your students who have no interest in English. I think the problem comes with the required English classes, which are completely unnecessary for more than 90% of the students. |
Yeah, compulsory English doesn't always help, especially those studying something like engineering and never planning to leave China (whether English might actually be useful for them or not doesn't really matter if they feel it won't be).
But I still disagree that they seem like little adults--they have been through education, but in my experience few have had the kind of experiences most younger western people go through--things like holding a part time job, learning to drive a car, having a semi-serious relationship, having extracurricular external interests and hobbies (the kind of things you need to do to get into good schools abroad like student council, debate club, competitive sports, drama club etc.).
It is not the fact that they have gone through compulsory education, but the fact that said education only prepares them for a single test, and they are in class all day, everyday (often including weekends and holidays) and when they are not, they seem to exhausted to do much else. |
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