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shoegazer
Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 19
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 Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| ECC are actually among the more responsible employers in Japan; they wouldn't have lied to you about something as basic as whether or not there was actually a job for you. |
You are as dead wrong as it gets.
Sorry to come out so strongly about this, but ECC caused me to endure one of the most miserable periods of my entire life based on lie after lie about placement offers. I was interviewed in October of last year, and despite my asking SPECIFICALLY about the possibility of overstaffing and subsequently being told there is NO chance of overstaffing issues and that ALL recruits hired that month would be placed the following February (and this WAS a strongly emphasized point to my interview group), I was informed one month after being hired that anyone who had requested Tokyo placements (as I did) would be held back until April or later. I request to have my preferences changed to NO preferences for any one region as a result of not wanting to risk it for the next round of placements. Then what happened?
I'm told there's still spots in Chubu. I ask for one. I'm told oh sorry, turns out there aren't any after all.
Then I'm told a month later that there's a high chance of last minute drop outs and I'll almost definitely get to Japan by February after all. Then I'm told oh haha sorry, no one dropped out.
Then I'm told to wait until April for updates. April comes and I'm told "in the coming weeks" they'd be making new requests. April ends with no further updates.
In May I email to see whats up and am told OH guess what, we were literally about to email you tomorrow to officially offer you a spot in Tokyo, congratulations, so look out for our email tomorrow! At 5AM the same night, after having spread the word to all my family and friends that I'm leaving in July, I get the email from ECC. Except that it's to say Hey! We messed up! We don't have time to process your visa, oh well. That was fun.
Then I'm told they aren't bringing anyone at all over for any districts until "possibly" September/October. Meanwhile, I come on to this very board and found that NEW RECRUITS in other locales were in fact being placed while I was being left in the gutter, despite what I was led to believe was a first-come first-serve system when it came to their placement pool.
And then I got accepted by JET so I told ECC to piss off. BUT. I must emphasize that for seven of the most increasingly disappointing months of my life, I was in your exact situation. Yes, ECC has a good reputation IN GENERAL. But they are a business, and businesses will look out for themselves at the expense of everybody else, and if you look around this board and other ESL boards like this, you will find stories about people who have been hired and then subsequently swept under the carpet. There's definitely a respectable way of letting these people know they can't be sent out, but there's a seemingly random nature as to which batch of recruits will get sent out and who gets left behind so there's no justifying that in itself anyway. Despite its reputation, if you are hired with ECC, it seems that you necessarily have a chance at being left back, no matter what they tell you, and this is a huge negative factor that most people either overlook or just don't know about when deciding whether to go with them or AEON or any other of the handful of halfway decent eikaiwas here.
To the OP, my best advice is to do what I did. Start all over again. It sucks a ton, but if you got in with ECC, you can get interviews elsewhere. It might be harder in Australia, but it can be done. Check when AEON/Amity is coming to town. Check out Ohiyosensei wanted ads, maybe take advantage of the working holiday visa and look for work in Japan, there ARE jobs if you're willing to fight for them. Best of luck to you, I hope you eventually make it out here. |
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kathrynoh
Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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It happened to me about 3 years ago and, at that time, they blamed it on the global financial crisis. Doing the same thing for 3 years running though is getting really dodgy. It wouldn't surprise me if they had some kind of ranking for applicants that they don't tell you about -- which is really shitty.
Not sure also if Australians get it worse because they interview there later in the year.
From my own experience and from what I've read here, I'd advise anyone to take an ECC "offer" with a grain of salt. Unless you have an actual placement, it means nothing. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Anecdotal remarks notwithstanding, the 2 eikaiwas ECC and AEON have held the better reputation among the Big Four (when GEOS and NOVA were going concerns, pre-bankruptcy). No company is perfect, and sometimes it matters which branch one worked for, but those 2 are indeed considered about as trustworthy as they come. |
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Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:45 am Post subject: |
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Mix, I was ready to suggest that you give ECC some time and stay in touch with them. After reading shoegazer and kathrynoh's experiences, I'm not so sure. My advice at this point would be to e-mail the recruiter and professionally express your disappointment. Ask the recruiter to confirm whether ECC is still interested, so you'll know whether you should look elsewhere. Maybe give them a date after which your acceptance of the job offer is rescinded if you aren't in Japan.
Last edited by Vince on Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Anecdotal remarks notwithstanding, the 2 eikaiwas ECC and AEON have held the better reputation among the Big Four (when GEOS and NOVA were going concerns, pre-bankruptcy). No company is perfect, and sometimes it matters which branch one worked for, but those 2 are indeed considered about as trustworthy as they come. |
Then again, this is English education in Japan. Very few good companies, a couple ok ones, and tons o' bad ones. Just the way it is. ECC is considered good, but if it were in your home country, most would look down on it, job condition wise/treatment, I suspect |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
| Then again, this is English education in Japan. Very few good companies, a couple ok ones, and tons o' bad ones. Just the way it is. ECC is considered good, but if it were in your home country, most would look down on it, job condition wise/treatment, I suspect |
As I thought I had made clear above, I don't think so because of the average good image it has here. An equivalent thing in the U.S. would probably (IMO) have an equivalent image.
All things being equal, if treated on average, don't you think so? |
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mix
Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Appreciate the advice guys, very worrying to hear some of your stories though. After I got the news, I did write an email to the manager expressing my disappointment but I said that I wanted to continue to be considered for placements with them. I'm going to try for JET in the meantime, but unfortunately that is probably my only other option as I think I might have burnt the bridge to AEON. (I was rejected after the personal interview by a templated rejection email and was refused any feedback as to why I was knocked back. I followed up with an angry email that was never replied to). The whole placement system is a total pain in the arse, glad I'm not the only person who feels jaded by it. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| rxk22 wrote: |
| Then again, this is English education in Japan. Very few good companies, a couple ok ones, and tons o' bad ones. Just the way it is. ECC is considered good, but if it were in your home country, most would look down on it, job condition wise/treatment, I suspect |
As I thought I had made clear above, I don't think so because of the average good image it has here. An equivalent thing in the U.S. would probably (IMO) have an equivalent image.
All things being equal, if treated on average, don't you think so? |
I think that is because the average here is def skewed down a bit.
But then again are we talking average or the mean here? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| mix wrote: |
| I think I might have burnt the bridge to AEON. (I was rejected after the personal interview by a templated rejection email and was refused any feedback as to why I was knocked back. I followed up with an angry email that was never replied to). |
Yup, angry letters will do that. Resist the urge.
| Quote: |
| The whole placement system is a total pain in the arse, glad I'm not the only person who feels jaded by it. |
Do you know any place that's better? AEON and ECC are huge outfits, and your problems notwithstanding, the simple fact is that they cannot possibly respond to all of the hundreds (thousands?) of applicants who want feedback on rejections. |
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mix
Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| As I wrote in my email to the AEON recruitment guy, I wouldn't have had an issue with being given the rejection email with no feedback had my online application been knocked back or even if I had failed at the group interview stage. The fact that I was rejected at the personal interview stage and that only about 6 or so people were given a personal interview, really rubbed me the wrong way. I said that it reflected very poorly on his company and that he was a lazy bum. I don't regret it, I think I was tactful in the email (I didn't explicitly say 'lazy bum'). It certainly made me feel better if nothing else. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| mix wrote: |
| As I wrote in my email to the AEON recruitment guy, I wouldn't have had an issue with being given the rejection email with no feedback had my online application been knocked back or even if I had failed at the group interview stage. The fact that I was rejected at the personal interview stage and that only about 6 or so people were given a personal interview, really rubbed me the wrong way. I said that it reflected very poorly on his company and that he was a lazy bum. I don't regret it, I think I was tactful in the email (I didn't explicitly say 'lazy bum'). It certainly made me feel better if nothing else. |
So they met you, didn't like you, and you sent them an angry email telling them they were arseholes. Way to confirm their beliefs!
Many, many recruiters - not just Japanese eikaiwa chains, but even organisations in your home country - don't give feedback of the kind you wanted. As I understand it, it's not a common practice in Japan to do so anyway. Live with it.
For the record, I'm glad I don't know your real name because I would never hire you having seen your attitude. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| mix wrote: |
| The fact that I was rejected at the personal interview stage and that only about 6 or so people were given a personal interview, really rubbed me the wrong way. I said that it reflected very poorly on his company and that he was a lazy bum. I don't regret it, I think I was tactful in the email (I didn't explicitly say 'lazy bum'). It certainly made me feel better if nothing else. |
You really believe that they only saw about 6 people?! Did it never occur to you that the interviewer may have had to attend a number of interview sessions across the world where they personally interviewed likely at least 10 times that amount. That's why these big companies have a city recruitment schedule and often only hold interviews in one country at a time; the same small team is probably conducting all of them!
I assume it never occcurred to you that whilst interviewers might make preliminary cuts, it's HQ that makes the final decision on who gets hired. So not only do those lazybums have to work their little socks off building reports on a huge number of potential candidates to send back to HQ, but they may not know the details as to why any specific candidate got rejected in the final stage.
And I agree with Mr Monkey, I wouldn't hire you either. You showed ignorrance, bad attitude and poor conduct with that mail to them so they are well within their right to black list you. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| mix wrote: |
| As I wrote in my email to the AEON recruitment guy, I wouldn't have had an issue with being given the rejection email with no feedback had my online application been knocked back or even if I had failed at the group interview stage. The fact that I was rejected at the personal interview stage and that only about 6 or so people were given a personal interview, really rubbed me the wrong way. |
You are astonishingly naive. People all over the world in a plethora of careers get rejected in personal interviews. You make it sound as if you should have gotten the job just by getting that far in the application stage. Who are you to say that a personal interview is any guarantee that you'll get the job? Pretty darned arrogant thinking.
[Close friend of mine interviewed for a VP job a few years back. Got to the 4th interview stage and thought he had it cinched. He didn't get the job. He very politely phoned the interviewer to ask why. The interviewer admitted his surprise at the question because nobody ever asks why, he said! However, because my friend took the time to phone and was polite, he got the feedback he needed. You never will be in that position with that interviewer.]
| Quote: |
| I said that it reflected very poorly on his company and that he was a lazy bum. I don't regret it, I think I was tactful in the email (I didn't explicitly say 'lazy bum'). |
Any remarks, and I mean any that are directed to the interviewer in a personal nature are grounds for immediately refusal to hire, let alone refusal to respond. He may have had to reject dozens of people (or as mentioned above, he might have just relayed a message from higher up), and he is under no obligation to explain any feedback to you on your personal interview, but with remarks like the above, even insinuations, you just shot yourself in the foot. He was actually being a professional by not responding, whether you believe it or not.
| Quote: |
| It certainly made me feel better if nothing else. |
And, that's the important thing, right? Feeling better is higher than being a professional, thanking him for his time, and not burning your bridges for a shot at a future interview. Did you ever reflect on the interview and try to determine what small point might have been your downfall? Most people do, and if they come up with nothing, it's because the reason is something they weren't aware of.
1. Posture or appearance
2. Manner (overly casual is usually a downfall)
3. Picking your nose, teeth, ears, etc.
4. Bad breath (more easily determined in a personal interview)
5. Poor answers (despite what you think you said in a positive way, and the most likely reason) |
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Vince
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 559
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:15 am Post subject: |
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Mix, you got some great advice here. I agree that receiving a job offer and then being strung along is horrible. But if it's just a matter of being interviewed and not getting the offer, don't take it personally. You don't know who else they interviewed, what happened in those interviews, or what kind of person is being sought for a particular opening.
If I were an interviewer or hiring official, I wouldn't want to explain my reasons for not offering somebody the job. Some people might take the feedback professionally; many others would turn it into a second-chance interview, a debate, or a flat-out argument. |
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mix
Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:18 am Post subject: |
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I said the email was tactful, I made no personal insults. I said it reflected poorly on the company that they wouldn't provide feedback and that I felt disrespected by that. The guy was the Australian recruiter, there was only one recruiting session held on that week and the next one was a couple of months away. I'm sure he had other work to do, but so does everyone. I was at the group interview and knew how many people were there and who were given personal interviews. I would've been satisfied with three sentences, at least some justification as to why I didn't get the job. You think his time is so precious that he can't do that for 6 people? I've interviewed for big and small companies and whenever I have gotten knocked back at the interview stage, all have given me feedback when I've asked. It's courtesy for having gone to an interview. I don't think the fact that they operate abroad or that they interview a lot of people excuses them from that.
EDIT: Appreciate the reply Vince, the feedback after an interview may be just an Australian thing then. |
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