Job Discussion Forums

[johnslat]

A partial list of "unclear thinkers":

"Capital punishment is the most premeditated of murders."
-Albert Camus, French philosopher

"To take a life when a life has been lost is revenge, not justice."
-Desmond Tutu

"What says the law? You will not kill. How does it say it? By killing!"
-Victor Hugo,

"I have yet to see a death case among the dozen coming to the Supreme Court on eve-of-execution stay applications in which the defendant was well represented at trial... People who are well represented at trial do not get the death penalty."
-Ruth Bader Ginsburg, U.S. Supreme Court Justice

"I think this country would be much better off if we did not have capital punishment.... We cannot ignore the fact that in recent years a disturbing number of inmates on death row have been exonerated."
-John Paul Stevens, U.S. Supreme Court Justice

"The death penalty is the special and eternal sign of barbarism. Where death penalty is applied, barbarism dominates; where death penalty is rare, civilisation reigns. Three things belong to God and do not belong to men: the irrevocable, the irreparable and the indissoluble. Woe to men if they introduce it in their laws!"

-Albert Einstein

Regards,
John

[eurobound]

[johnslat]

Dear eurobound,

Of course you don't. Why should you? Why should anyone, for that matter, when their opinions about capital punishment so clearly demonstrate their muddled thinking?

Or, as the last unclear thinker on that list might put it:

It's all relative.

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

I found that list quite interesting and do care very much about what they thought. That is not to say we have to endorse everything that great men say, but it does, or should, give pause for thought - if they thought something, then maybe lesser minds (and meaner spirits) should take notice instead of instantly rejecting it. To me, that's the ultimate in muddleheadedness.

Thanks for sharing those ideas.

Sasha

[Captain_Fil]

Is the death penalty justified at times?

A case in point...

Westley Allan Dodd was a convicted serial killer and child molester in the state of Washington.

In 1989, he abducted, stripped, tortured and raped 4-year-old Lee Iseli for several days in his apartment. He soon strangled the little boy and hung the boy's corpse in his closet.

Later, he tried to kidnap another young boy at a local movie theatre. But was apprehended by the boy's stepfather and was arrested by police.

Searching Dodd's apartment, the police soon discovered a torture rack and a diary of his twisted fantasies.

In 1990, Dodd was convicted and sentenced to death for the rape and killing of Iseli, as well as for the molestation and murder of two other boys (Cole and William Neer, aged 10 and 11).

His molestation victims (all under 12) number nearly one hundred. Since adolescence, his sexual fantasies became increasingly violent and murderous. Eventually, he could not control his urges.

On death row, he refused to appeal his death sentence. He stated: "I must be executed before I have an opportunity to escape or kill someone within the prison. If I do escape, I promise you I will kill prison guards if I have to and rape and enjoy every minute of it."

On January 5, 1993, Dodd was executed by hanging at a state prison in Walla Walla, Washington.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930103&slug=1677933

Aren't some crimes so heinous and so outrageous that justify the death penalty?

[dean_a_jones]

[Sashadroogie]

Of course one can be against the death penalty, yet also not care too much if convicted monster accidentally stabs himself 37 times in his prison cell. That way every one is happy. We, as good citizens, have clear consciences, as the death penalty was not imposed by the system.

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

Just put him in the general population. Even hardened felons can't stand being around "short eye" rapist/murderers.

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Hence this film of the same topic: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076706/

[Captain_Fil]

Polly Klaas was a 12-year-old girl living in Petaluma, California.

On October 1, 1993, she was abducted from her home by a strange man who wielded a knife.

Two months later, after a massive search, Richard Allen Davis was arrested by local police. His palm print had been found in Klaas' bedroom.

Eventually, Davis led police to the decaying corpse of Klaas near Cloverdale, California. She had been strangled from behind with a piece of cloth.

In 1996, Davis was convicted of first-degree murder with four special circumstances (robbery, burglary, kidnapping and lewd act on a child).

At his sentencing, Davis taunted the family and implied that the grieving father, Marc Klaas, had molested Polly. ("Just don't do me like my dad," claimed Davis of what the young victim allegedly told him.)

He was sentenced to death and is now on death row at San Quentin State Prison in California.

Fifteen years later, Davis still enjoys three meals a day, free medical care and a place to sleep. All of which are supported by taxpayers.

In his mind, Davis still relives his sick and twisted fantasies of kidnapping and molesting young girls. California justice has been very slow.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/klaas/1.html

Do unrepentant murderers deserve the luxury of life imprisonment?

[johnslat]

Dear Captain_Fil,

Ever been in a penitentiary? I rather doubt it.

" . . . the luxury of life imprisonment?"

I spent a year teaching GED at the New Mexico State Penitentiary. It was the worst job I've ever had. The atmosphere was so repugnant and stifling. This from a guy who spent nineteen years in Saudi. And I got to go home at night. Personally, I'd rather be executed than spent life there.

"All of which are supported by taxpayers."

Perhaps you didn't see my previous post; it costs the taxpayers MORE to execute someone.


Regards,
John

[Captain_Fil]

[johnslat]

"The death penalty costs more, delivers less, and puts innocent lives at risk. Life without parole provides swift, severe, and certain punishment. It provides justice to survivors of murder victims and allows more resources to be invested into solving other murders and preventing violence. Sentencing people to die in prison is the sensible alternative for public safety and murder victims� families."

Aug. 19, 2008 - American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)

Mario Cuomo, JD, Governor of New York at the time of the quote, in a June 17, 1989 article for the New York Times titled "New York State Shouldn't Kill People," wrote:
"What makes the risk of wrongful execution all the more unacceptable is that there is an effective alternative to burning the life out of human beings in the name of public safety. That alternative is just as permanent, at least as great a deterrent and - for those who are so inclined - far less expensive than the exhaustive legal appeals required in capital cases.
That alternative is life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. No 'minimums' or 'maximums.' No time off for good behavior. No chance of release by a parole board, ever. Not even the possibility of clemency. It is, in practical effect, a sentence of death in incarceration.
Life without parole is achievable immediately. The Legislature could enact it Monday. I would sign the measure Tuesday. It would apply to crimes committed the next day. In fact, the only thing preventing the next cop killer from spending every day of the rest of his life in jail is the politics of death."

June 17, 1989 - Mario M. Cuomo, JD

John P. Conrad, MA, former Chief of the Center for Crime Prevention and Rehabilitation at the National Institute of Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice, in a chapter titled "The Retributivist's Case against Capital Punishment," in a 1983 book titled The Death Penalty: A Debate, wrote:
"I hold that the execution of the most contemptible murderer conflicts with the true functions of retributive justice� the repudiation of evil done and the prospective reconciliation of the criminal with the community he has wronged. When punishment lapses into mere retaliation, the criminal's total criminality is affirmed; there can be no reason to expect reconciliation. When that retaliation takes the form of execution, the community makes it clear that it expects neither atonement nor reconciliation. The unreconciled criminal was our enemy; once he is executed he is still unreconciled, a dead enemy.
The scales of punishment that should compose the structure of retributive justice do not require retaliation, even at the apex where murderers must be punished. Capital punishment can be justified only by retaliatory justice as practiced in ancient Greece and Rome. For retributive justice, long imprisonment, sometimes life imprisonment, is the response that fits the continuity of punishments to which modern society is now committed...
...The death penalty is an anachronism of which society must purge itself so that the process of retributive justice may contribute to order and solidarity rather than to the inflammation of hostility."

1983 - John P. Conrad, MA

Catherine Appleton, PhD, Research Officer at the Centre for Criminological Research, and Bent Grover, PhD, former Associate for Mitchell Madison Group/marchFIRST, in their Apr. 24, 2007 article for the British Journal of Criminology titled "The Pros and Cons of Life Without Parole," wrote:
"For those in favour of LWOP [life in prison without parole], another key benefit is its retributive power. It is argued that murderers deserve to be so punished because of the heinous nature of their crimes. If the death penalty is to be abolished, a replacement sanction of sufficient gravity needs to be provided by law. Proponents in the United States have emphasized that �life without parole is certainly not a lenient sentence � (Blair 1994:198). Sometimes referred to as �death by incarceration � , such sentences are undeniably tough, pleasing both politicians and prosecutors, but also satisfying some opponents of the death penalty....

Deterrence is seen to be another major strength of LWOP. Some abolitionists have put forward the argument that while reviewable life sentences offer little in the way of deterring those who might kill, LWOP is undeniably harsh and its deterrent effect should not be underestimated."

Grasso's Farewell: 'Life Without Parole' Worse Than Death

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/21/nyregion/grasso-s-farewell-life-without-parole-worse-than-death.html

The Case Against capital punishment:

No society has the right to take a life. Murder is murder, even if the State is committing the crime.
capital punishment hurts the family of the prisoner more than the prisoner him or her self.
In countries where capital punishment is practiced, it is often the poor, the uneducated and the minority groups who die, not the worst offenders.
There is no evidence that capital punishment acts as a deterrent to prevent further crimes.
Murders tend to be spur of the moment crimes, they are not rational acts and therefore the offender does not think about the consequences.
capital punishment lowers all those involved to the level of the murderer.
Courts are reluctant to convict if capital punishment is the likely outcome.
There is always the possibility of error. It is too late after someone is dead to find this out.
Facts and figures

It is interesting to consider some facts and figures related to the death penalty. According to Amnesty International more than half the countries in the world have now abolished the Death Penalty in law or in practice. More than two countries a year on average have abolished the death penalty in law since 1976. Of those who retain the death penalty many have not used it for many years. Once abolished the death penatly is rarely introduced. Since 1985 twenty-five countries have abloished the death penalty while only four have re-introduced it. Of those four Nepal has since re-abolished the death penalty and there have been no executions in the other three. During 1996 4,272 prisoners are known to have been executed in 39 countries but more than 3,500 of these cases were in China. AI point out that the real figure is certainly much higher than this. In the USA 45 prisoners were executed in 1996 and more than 3000 were under sentence of death at the end of that year.

Regards,
John

[Captain_Fil]

Albert Fish looked like a harmless old man. But he was a monster...a cannibal.

On May 28, 1928, Fish took 10-year-old Grace Budd to an abandoned two-story house in Westchester County, New York.

While she played outside, he stripped upstairs. And he had his tools: a butcher knife, a cleaver and a saw. He was ready.

He called her into the house. Entering the bedroom, she saw the naked old man. She screamed and tried to run.

But Fish grabbed and strangled the young girl. He then decapitated her. Undressing the headless corpse, he cut it into pieces with the butcher knife and cleaver.

Eagerly, he cooked the severed parts of her body. He added carrots, onions, turnips and celery with salt and pepper.

Fish soon ate this gruesome feast. It took him nine days to eat her entire body.

Six years later, Fish was captured. He confessed his shocking crime. He also confessed to the killing and eating of 4-year-old Billy Gaffney.

On January 16, 1936, Fish was executed by electrocution at Sing Sing prison.

He would never again kill and eat young children. The death penalty made certain of that.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/fish/index.html

http://www.prairieghosts.com/fish.html