Job Discussion Forums

Mike E · Joined: 06 Oct 2011 Posts: 132

I'm TESOL certified in the US, have a BA unrelated to teaching English, and have less than a year teaching experience. I've been trying to line up a decent job teaching in China.
I've been surprised at the way several other teachers have reacted, on here and in other circumstances, when discussing things like office hours. They say, for example, "You have all the bargaining power--just refuse to do office hours." My initial response to this has been, these people must not mind being unemployed.
In a couple of my Skype interviews, I have approached the subject of office hours -- granted, what I have not done is confidently assert something like "I will refuse to do them." I've brought them up fairly carefully. And the response has been like "oh yes, they are a required part of our contracts."
Will places really bend on something like that, just because a prospective FT wants them to? I mean, aren't they in a position to just pass and wait for another fairly inexperienced FT who won't make that demand?

7969 · Joined: 26 Mar 2003 Posts: 5782 Location: Coastal Guangdong

Contrary to what some on this forum believe, YOU (just by virtue of being a native speaking foreigner) don't have ALL the bargaining power ALL of the time in this business. You may have some bargaining power some of the time. In the end it all depends on a variety of circumstances that intersect with one another.

And again related to some of the attitudes I see on this forum, don't go into any kind of negotiation with a hardened attitude where you're going to refuse this and refuse that outright (You're ((foreigners in general)) not that unique or special and the school may very well tell you to take a hike). This kind of attitude is confrontational and not a very good way to begin a new working relationship. People who advocate this kind of behaviour are the ones who seem to have problems keeping a job and/or haven't had a lot of joy or success in China. Instead you can/should politely and respectfully try to negotiate and arrange compromises and in many cases this will work to your advantage. If it doesn't then move on to the next job offer and try again.

Opiate · Joined: 10 Aug 2011 Posts: 630 Location: Qingdao

Most don't have bargaining power. We are not special just because of our passports. However, there are plenty of jobs so find one suitable for you. Trying to force a school to give you what you want is usually a losing battle unless there are valid incentives for the school to do so. However....there is not a shortage of ESL jobs that I am aware of. Keep looking until you find what you want. Or something close enough to it.

Your first year you may have to accept something less than ideal. Once you are in China you will have a far better chance to get a job that can offer you what you want. Some schools seem willing to negotiate more when they can talk to a candidate face to face. Before you are actually IN China you are a huge question mark. Some prospective employees fall off the face of the earth and never work a single day or get cold feet or can not get the FEC or can't adjust...etc

BTW, I do not recall anyone ever saying we have all the bargaining power in other threads. We can however walk away if a job offer is not suitable. Fairly sure this is true everywhere.

rogerwilco · Joined: 10 Jun 2010 Posts: 1549

I have been in China for over three years, and I have never been asked to do office hours.
It just depends upon where you work.
Universities and public high schools are less likely to ask you to do office hours, and training centers are more likely to require office hours.

Baozi man · Joined: 06 Sep 2011 Posts: 214

Mike, Some FTs have worked 6, 8 hours a week for full salary, no office hours, and so forth.

In the end, you have to do what you have to do.

The Great Wall of Whiner · Joined: 29 Jan 2003 Posts: 4946 Location: Blabbing

Mike E · Joined: 06 Oct 2011 Posts: 132

Mike E · Joined: 06 Oct 2011 Posts: 132

The Great Wall of Whiner · Joined: 29 Jan 2003 Posts: 4946 Location: Blabbing

Whatever makes you most comfortable. I don't for a minute suggest being confrontational (being rude and storming out) but I have no problem saying 'no thank you, the office hours seem redundant' and going on to one of the other 50 schools offering me a job.

It's a whole year of your life; millions of good paying jobs out there as others have correctly pointed out above this post that have no office hours.

With that I wish you good luck in your search.

choudoufu · Joined: 25 May 2010 Posts: 3325 Location: Mao-berry, PRC

some places will bend, some won't. you write that during the interviews
they say office hours are required. we need more detail. what kind of
school? how many hours? doing what?

university? if required, it's probably only 1-2 hours a week. why not
agree as long as you're under the standard 16 hours specified in the
contract? just take some work along and use if for lesson planning.

i suspect you were interviewing with a mill. from the contracts discussed
on the forums, they seem to want you on site 40 hours per week, either
teaching or in the office.

Mike E · Joined: 06 Oct 2011 Posts: 132

Yes, I was definitely talking about mills. About 25 teaching and 15 office has been the norm.
Separately, I've been talking with a couple universities; no, I haven't had any issue with office hours, regarding them.

Lobster · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:34 am Post subject:

Some places want to hold you in the office for no other reason than to stop you from moonlighting. Others want you there for PR purposes. There is no lesson prep that you couldn't do in the comfort of your home, so there's a different motivation at play here. Unless you're a DoS, AD or Head Teacher, office hours are useless. I would politely try to negotiate them out of the contract or look at jobs without this requirement.

RED

wangdaning · Joined: 22 Jan 2008 Posts: 3154

I work at a uni and we are required to offer office hours. I simply specify what day/times I am available. If a student wants to meet they must email me at least one day in advance with the purpose of the meeting. No email, no meeting. I am not willing to simply sit around and wait to see if a student wants to talk. I am willing to help them, but they need to be clear on what they want help with. Five weeks in and no emails.

When I was in uni it was standard for teachers to have office hours, so I am not surprised they would be expected. I would suggest, however, that students prepare clearly what they want to discuss. As far as just sitting in the office for no reason, I wouldn't take a job that demanded that. It is like a meeting with no agenda.

Baozi man · Joined: 06 Sep 2011 Posts: 214

I've had this experience a couple of times. It is somewhat related to the thread: A student sits in my oral English class for a term, sometimes two terms. Said student does not participate in class discussions, do assignments, or show any desire to learn English.

Then, after he/she fail or receives a poor mark, when he/she are no longer students in my class, he/she comes to the office, and proclaims that he/she wants to learn English from me. Of course, other teachers think that is so wonderful. They expect me to give the student private lessons for free.

Of course, I absolutely refuse. Not a chance. I'm more than willing to help students who actually try during class time. Loafers, posers, and so forth, no chance.

I'm not sure who you will encounter in a language mill. It wouldn't surprise me if a student or a parent figures that your office hours are actually a good time to get free one on one lessons.

.

xiguagua · Joined: 09 Oct 2011 Posts: 768

Instead of boring office hours, try to negotiate an alternative to office hours that is beneficial to the students and more interesting for you. English corners, other activities like just going to a tea shop and sitting down with some students to chat or whatever. I know these are things that many of us do anyway, but if you sit with your employer and let them know that you should be compensated for your personal time then I think they could understand it.