Job Discussion Forums

[PAULH]

[Sam Adams]

Paul, I think you have a lot of great points. Although I notice that many 'don'ts' are actually everyday do's. To name a few, every time I go out with the teachers they always pick up the moist towel at a restaurant and wipe their face. people in the teachers room are always blowing their nose. As for teeth, I know the stereotype, but up here in Kanto I see some really beautiful smiles. People always smile when I turn my chopsticks around, because no one else at the table is doing it. What I'm trying to say is that from my experience, people coming to Japan shouldn't come with too many preconceived notions on right and wrong. Making mistakes is part of the process, and gives you an opportunity to learn why something is being done the way it is.

Don't worry Paul, the newbies shouldn't embarrass you too much.
By the way, Mel Gibson was born in the United States, which makes him a 'certified Yank'[/quote]

[Tonester]

So, you're from NZ Paul. Which part? My mother is from Auckland and I am technically a Half-Aussie, Half-Kiwi but have Aussie citizenship only. I can get NZ citizenship but I don't really want it because last time I went it was too cold for me. Even my mother who has been in Aus for over 30 years doesn't want to go back because of the cold.

I also know a teacher from NZ who has been in Japan for 8 years and has lost his accent completely.

Back to the original topic: A lot of the younger Japanese today don't even abide by some of the things you outlined. They look at me surprisingly when I use the top end of my chopsticks when taking food. Some of the older people too tell me that I don't need to do that because they don't.

Just goes to show that even some Japanese people don't follow some of the rules of ettiquette because they either don't know or don't agree with the rules themselves.

Some of the rules will gradually become obsolete, I think but I'm only talking from my experience here.

[PAULH]

[Tonester]

This NZ teacher I know who has been in Japan for 8 years first sounded like a european (closest country to associate his pronounciation would most likely be France, thus a quasi-french accent) but after talking to him for a while he told me that he studied at Oxford in the UK and comes from NZ. It's surprising how someone can lose their accent like that. I had NZ pronounciation when I was saying words like "dance", "chance" etc. I lost it as I got older and now sound like just any old Aussie. I was born in Aus so I guess that's the reason.

The kiwi accent doesn't really bother me but my mother can't win. In Aus, she gets asked "Are you a kiwi?" or "Are you a tourist?" but when she talks to her family in NZ they always say "You really sound like an Aussie, what's the matter with you?"

It is funny though. I realise having been in Japan for almost 9 months now that my accent is strong and my students remind me of that when they don't understand my pronounciation. I water my accent down to an almost British-sounding accent (just by highering the pitch of my voice) and it has worked wonders. I met a fellow non-japanese person at a party and he thought I was British.

I tell ya, the accent thing is really perplexing; for me anyway.

[J-kun]

A good list, but if I can play devil's advocate for a minute here...
Since as gaijin we can never fit in, what's the incentive to follow all the rules? As Paul mentioned, most Japanese think outsiders can't possibly understand their refined ways. If they expect us to be uncouth barbarians, why not "live down" to their expectations a bit.
Also, maybe it's a big city phenomenon, but I see young Japanese who don't know or follow this code of etiquette all the time.

[guest of Japan]

J-kun you just brought a huge smile to my face.

The question is do you want to be a good gaijin or a bad gaijin?

The choice is yours.

[shmooj]

[Lynn]

[Lynn]

Someone here posted that Japanese ettiquette will become obsolete even for Jpes citizens. I see this coming. In HK and China there is a definate "correct" way to use chopsticks. (middle finger under top chopstick and worked like a lever)

I once said to a Japanese elem. schl. principal,"Why don't Japanese use chopsticks the "proper" way anymore?"

He told me that after WWII, Jpes threw out the notion of using chopsticks the "proper" way because it was too restrictive. Jpes should be more creative and use chopsticks how ever they felt comfortable. I told him that that sounded like a good idea, but using chopsticks the "improper" way actually hindered children from picking up the food. He agreed with me, actually. He said that Jpes had a hard time adapting to the American occupation and lost many of their good traits trying while trying to lose their Japan-ness.

It's all very interesting. I've met a few others who are saddened by the state of things. I met an old lady who said that Japan was too "peaceful" that's why society is going down the tubes.

[king kakipi]

`tis indeed a comprehensive and useful list.

A couple of observations:-
On every escalator I have used in Tokyo people stand to the LEFT except for the odd person who straddles them to the right (usually when I am in a hurry to `overtake`.........). Somewhat perversely, I also notice that the `up and down arrows` on station steps are frequently ignored, even at busy times
I frequently see Jnr High School kids (always girls) sitting/squatting on the floor of trains
I am amazed at the amount of `public nose blowing` I see; I thought it was rude but I see Japanese doing it frequently (maybe they are trying to make me feel at home?!). Indeed I recently witnessed a kind of `mini recital`where a Japanese gave his nose a loud hoot at least 12 times; `twas on the few times when a (quite elderly female) Japanese stranger and I exchanged smiles......so obviously `kinda` taboo but less so than in the past
Anytime I go out with my Japanese in-laws and their relatives I use the `other` end of the `choppers` to pick up food from the communal plates; I am always the only one to do so!!
Japan continues to suprise, entertain, educate, confuse and sometimes frustrate me!!

[JibberJabber]

[capper]

Paul,
Your post was quite in-depth and very useful for the newbies I am sure. Also useful to an extent for those of us who have been here for a while but tend to forget certain things.

Despite all of the very serious customs that are followed by Japanese people in this fine country, there still seem to be a great many contradictions when it comes to various issues.

Aside from all of the "ultra-clean" way of life you have described -- and particularly many of the customs regarding eating -- there seem to be a lot of issues that are either forgotten or considered to be non-issues or not important.

Frankly, I find walking down the street eating an apple or another food item a lot more polite than walking down the street with a cigarette polluting the air and the lungs of the person who unfortunately happens to be walking behind. Then, not too mention tossing that disgusting butt on the ground -- which I see dozens of times everyday. It's like religion here to be sure to separate those plastic bottles, glass bottles, etc. from the burnable trash. But there seems to be no qualms with tossing a filthy cigarette butt on the ground wherever and whenever someone chooses.

While people constantly talk about the fact that Japanese society is geared towards the consideration of other people, in many ways it seems just the opposite. In Canada, people often hold doors open for the person after them. In Japan, I have had more doors slammed in my face by the person walking ahead of me and entering or exiting first. Whether in the supermarket, on the street, in an office, or a public place, people are constantly walking into you without looking where they are going. It seems more incredible since Tokyo is such a crowded city. ou'd think that people would be more considerate of others and not put themselves in a position where they must apologize for ignorance and / or a lack of consideration towards others all the time. It seems to me that I cannot recall that last time someone checked with me to see if it was okay if they smoke at my table or closeby to where I am sitting in a restaurant or another place. You might counter with the fact that the Japanese culture doesn't regard smoking as a problem but I think that's BS. They have already banned it on the streets of Chiyoda Ward and most family restaurants have no-smoking sections. Look at all the smoke-free Starbuck's. I highly doubt that they are filled with smoke-loving customers. Have some cinsideration for those who don't want to breath that crap and damage their bodies. Seems A LOT more important than some things.

Having said all that... The cosy clean fascinating societal image is filled with plenty of prostitution and dirty crime that seems to be just fine with people who help feed that monster. Just like the kind, fun-loving, faithful dad in the U.S. who goes to church every Sunday and beats the hell out of his wife and kids the rest of the week. There are plenty of issues here in Japan too. Next time you are so concerned with being so kind, polite, and generous to that oji-san sitting beside you on the train, just remember that he may have had sex with one of his 13-year old junior high school students that very same day. That too seems to happen all the time here in Japan.

Like I said, there are a lot of contradictions here too. Sometimes it's not worth worrying too much about the little things.

[SEndrigo]

Fantastic list there, Paul

Reminds me of a book I once read, "The Japanese Way"

Capper - you sound like another version of Alex Kerr and William Bohnaker (i.e. let's only look at the problems with Japan and use our Western morals and principles to judge how the Japanese should behave).

But I agree with you about Canada....they are the nicest people ever (them and the Dutch, but I'm biased so forget what I have just said about the Canucks, he he)

[J-kun]

I just wish they would cover their nose and mouth when they cough or sneeze.