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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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 Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| big_big_bang_theory_fan wrote: |
It's hardly balanced because you like the writing. Only something witnessed and documented by third and fourth and more parties is fair and balanced. There is ZERO reason to believe anything written by anyone on those (or other) sites. Anyone can claim anything. |
How many parties does it take to document the evidence of FTs on mainland China? If one party can make decisions for 1.3 billion, why couldn't it be one to just offer the inside of a company/school? Honestly, do we really need our grievancies to be supported by some legal powers or whatever other institutions, parties? If so, then create some institutions out of the money collected from all the sponsors. No offence but it's extremely difficult for some FTs out there. Let's give them all some respect, shall we? |
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jayjjasper
Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 344
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Honestly, do we really need our grievancies to be supported by some legal powers or whatever other institutions, parties? |
Unless supported it is little more than a "bitch" and suspect as well.....since the landscape of schools and companies change with the influx of new employees, it stands to reason that a complaint may also no longer be valid..
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| No offence but it's extremely difficult for some FTs out there. Let's give them all some respect, shall we? |
Respect comes from knowledge of the individual and there is no reason to respect anyone based on a internet post.
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While these sites may serve some purpose of warning they are primarily for entertainment and therefore not solid enough for a decision making process.
It is also true that anyone can claim anything, just as one can claim that I posted the above-mentioned sites because I like the writing. |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| When the same school receives the same bad online reviews over the years, it lends some credence to the possibility that there's something wrong at the school. |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
The only way a credible blacklist could be made is if people used real, verifiable names. |
What about folks who use an anonymous screen name in a forum such as this? Are the informative posts on this forum to be ignored because most of us don't know anyone's real name.
On the internet, the small amount of anonymity afforded by a screen name may be enough to protect an FT from a vindictive FAO or school owner.
It works both ways.
If one has doubts about a school, why not accept the common wisdom found on this forum to contact present and foreign teachers at the school in question.
Can't do that? Move on. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Quote:
No offence but it's extremely difficult for some FTs out there. Let's give them all some respect, shall we?
Jayjjasper reply:
Respect comes from knowledge of the individual and there is no reason to respect anyone based on a internet post |
That's how it seems the poster takes the forums. Respect ought to come as soon as one signs in and participates on. Then, it ought to come from the site as well as from employers. Troubles begin when there are reasons to look for to respect. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| wangdaning wrote: |
The only way a credible blacklist could be made is if people used real, verifiable names. |
What about folks who use an anonymous screen name in a forum such as this? Are the informative posts on this forum to be ignored because most of us don't know anyone's real name.
On the internet, the small amount of anonymity afforded by a screen name may be enough to protect an FT from a vindictive FAO or school owner.
It works both ways.
If one has doubts about a school, why not accept the common wisdom found on this forum to contact present and foreign teachers at the school in question.
Can't do that? Move on. |
The problem with trusting members on this board is that two or three users may have the same experience because they are the same person. I was not trying to say it will always be a lie if it is here, just that it is unreliable. It is kind of like how if anyone ever posts something good about a school many (myself included) get suspicious on here. |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
The problem with trusting members on this board is that two or three users may have the same experience because they are the same person. |
This statement raises the question "Why do you THINK this is true?" |
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jayjjasper
Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 344
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:13 am Post subject: |
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wangdaning wrote:
The problem with trusting members on this board is that two or three users may have the same experience because they are the same person.
Miles Smiles:This statement raises the question "Why do you THINK this is true?" |
Since wangdaning uses the word "may" it would be reasonable to THINK that he intends to say that an element of trust maybe withheld due to the availability of tainted post due to multiplicity. If exist an availability of dubious intentions and the instrument is provided in which to facilitate these intentions, it stands to reason that a site would be used for purposes other than the providers purpose.
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If one has doubts about a school, why not accept the common wisdom found on this forum to contact present and foreign teachers at the school in question.
Can't do that? Move on. |
This is the true wisdom as it neither allows for false information and gives the applicant the ability to empower themselves with the real (as it can be without a personal testimonial from a trusted friend) information without trusting anonymous sources...a site for a black list would be an opportunity to poke the cat with a stick without bearing the Burden of proof or repercussions if information was false or misleading... |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:48 am Post subject: |
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What would you consider "proof"?
What if one cannot reach past employees?
Are dissatisfied teachers NOT to be allowed to post negative comments about employers? Employers send letters to employers of past employees. (My FAO told me that this is a common practice now).
Would you disregard a school that has been panned numerous times over a long period of time?
Should FTs be advised to just shut up and move on or should he initiate a labor grievance in the hope of winning it in order to prove his point and to serve as a warning to others who may consider working for said employer? |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| wangdaning wrote: |
The only way a credible blacklist could be made is if people used real, verifiable names. |
What about folks who use an anonymous screen name in a forum such as this? Are the informative posts on this forum to be ignored because most of us don't know anyone's real name.
On the internet, the small amount of anonymity afforded by a screen name may be enough to protect an FT from a vindictive FAO or school owner.
It works both ways.
If one has doubts about a school, why not accept the common wisdom found on this forum to contact present and foreign teachers at the school in question.
Can't do that? Move on. |
The problem with trusting members on this board is that two or three users may have the same experience because they are the same person. I was not trying to say it will always be a lie if it is here, just that it is unreliable. It is kind of like how if anyone ever posts something good about a school many (myself included) get suspicious on here. |
Oh, please! Don't muddle the issue! Suspicions arise when FTs are continuously discredited for their postings on forums. Should we believe that the sites ownerships with FT forums do not get pushed around by their sponsors, employers, recruiters and even the local authorities? Let's be honest here, shall we? I think FTs deserve that at least for responding to job adverts. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Anonymity is not the issue. What I told johnslat on a General Discussions thread is that given the number of posts he's (or she's?) written, I'd at least have a context with which to evaluate anything said about a school. On any of those other sites, the only thing I've got to go on is the review itself.
What's ironic is I'm currently working for a school that I could find only negative posts about warning me to 'avoid' but without substantiating why. I can't complain about the salary and with free housing---new apt with new furniture, appliances, and I've never had a lighter course load. The school is stocked with all kinds of teaching resources and a well-thought out curriculum.
Conversely, since I could find nothing negative about Longman Schools online , I accepted a position, naively believing it was as good as its name and as dedicated to prof'l dev't as the recruiter/teacher who hired me whose classes I took over while she was off on a 2nd TEFL certificate. |
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jayjjasper
Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 344
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:09 am Post subject: |
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Posts are beginning to get confusing here. I was simply putting out my point of view of having a blacklist. My point was that if it was to work it would have to be verifiable, not a friend of a friend or some anonymous crap.
If you want to post about being screwed over on here that is fine, but it by no means will be a true blacklist.
I also went on in the original post quoted here to talk about how things could be verified in a real blacklist. Other ideas about how to make information more reliable would be more than welcome. Just saying it is so because it is posted is not very helpful.
If this is the only internet site you've been to and you trust everything anonymous posters post I am sorry to ruin you dream. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
The only way a credible blacklist could be made is if people used real, verifiable names. Otherwise, it could be just one person. One person complaining about a school is not enough, but if the majority of employees complain then you probably want to avoid it. However, now the real name is out and they are complaining. If potential schools were to know the person would complain and blacklist every time something went wrong, nobody would hire them. Same happens in the US. If you say bad things about your previous employer in an interview you are unlikely to get the job.
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1. What makes you think those with grievances would suddenly become more credible if they have to use their real names?
2. What good is having a real name if I don't know the person any more than you do. They could be the group of colleagues someone here wrote about from a Suzhou school with fake degrees and TEFL certs. At least on a site like Dave's, if I pm'd another member about his/her comments regarding a school, I might get some specifics.
3. Do you honestly believe that TEFL recruiters here in China, even if they could, would even want to read what you'd written about former employers before hiring you? And who would they be to judge your claims, given the unregulated nature of this industry?
Dave's right! We should stop 'bashing' schools and just provide as much objective detail as possible about the circumstances surrounding our disappointment with a particular school as possible and let the reader judge whether to avoid the school or not. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
Posts are beginning to get confusing here. I was simply putting out my point of view of having a blacklist. My point was that if it was to work it would have to be verifiable, not a friend of a friend or some anonymous crap.
If you want to post about being screwed over on here that is fine, but it by no means will be a true blacklist.
I also went on in the original post quoted here to talk about how things could be verified in a real blacklist. Other ideas about how to make information more reliable would be more than welcome. Just saying it is so because it is posted is not very helpful.
If this is the only internet site you've been to and you trust everything anonymous posters post I am sorry to ruin you dream. |
On the contrary, I see the posts tell more clearly what we would like to read. Our disagreements just seem to be more visible on.
A true blacklist is a highly subjective term and perhaps impossible to achieve. Therefore, posts with our experiences about schools as a schoolwatch type of a thing, which has been suggested before, are by far much more acceptable. And, we don't have to be "screwed over" to contribute. Why would you put it that way, even if it's just your view?
What's not helpful is that when we use some inappropriate terms and when we fail to see the whole picture. So, for example, "a true blacklist", "a real blacklist", "screwed over" etc aren't suitable but sharing experiences ought to be acceptable by all means. The fact is that the site carries a lot of sponsors that often do not furnish FTs with descriptive and accurate ads. On the other hand, FTs posts, which describe their schools' experiences, often are more informational than job adverts that lack leads or even contacts with the right persons.
With your view, you aren't ruining anyone's dream, although you are taking a strong stand on what you'd like to read on. I believe that many FTs use varieties of sites to seek their opportunities or advice. Assuming they rely on this site only is, in my opinion, naive. Then, providing them all with experiences of other FTs is, again in my opinion, a responsibility the site has. The anonymity, you are refering to, offers a safety in countries, where not everything is the same as at home. Moreover, it supplies further opportunities FTs may not have otherwise. |
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