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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 458
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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 Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| You probably need to check your judeo-xtian morality at the door: it's not up to you to pass judgement on them. |
Many girls prostitute themselves in high school for Prada handbags and designer clothes. It's called "enjo kousai." Were you seriously not aware of that? Have you read any book or newspaper related to Japan published in the last 10 years?
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Read what I wrote very carefully. Now, tell me why you picked out enjokosai? Why assume I wouldn't know what it is? What indications either way would you have for asking whether I was aware of it or not? Why pick that out when it was not mentioned by the OP or myself? Moreover, explain to me why your baseline assumptions of "high school" and "prostitution" are *inherently* bad? (Warning, there's a logical trap in there.)
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And why can't spidr245 pass judgment on it? Who appointed you to judge who can and cannot pass judgment?
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This is an interesting point for you to argue then: you're saying *I* can't pass judgement of any sort (I didn't, by the way) but spidr245 *can*? Yet you offer no actual argument for why I can't. Just an accusation in the form of a question.
But for that question: why can't I say he/she/it should check their morality at the door? They looked at it from, as I said, a judeo-xtian perspective. Japan isn't a judeo-xtian country. I would have thought that was obvious. Weren't *you* paying any attention?!  Why should they check their sense of morality? For the same reason that you can't argue halal killing of cattle is "wrong" because of judeo-xtian sensibilities about "suffering".
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Enjo kousai is a social problem.
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No, I disagree: it's a legal problem. It's illegal. You did know that, didn't you?
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Many people (including Japanese, for whom you are trying to be an apologist)
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Show me where I did that. Nowhere did I defend delivery health. I simply voiced the opinion (I assume you subscribe to the idea of freedom of choice to do that?) that the perspective was ill-expressed by the person I was replying to. But hey, thanks for engaging in a bit of ad hominem attack *and* constructing a basic strawman argument. Appreciated. 
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acknowledge that, not just Jews and Christians as you imply. Strong arguments could be made against enjo kousai using secular, Buddhist, and even Shinto arguments.
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Feel free to actually provide one of these strong arguments then.  |
You are trying to come across as more clever than you really are, which is painful to watch. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
| Keep digging that hole, G Cthulhu. Keep digging that hole... |
So we can take that as a refusal to answer any questions? Make the accusation and run, huh? |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Shimokitazawa wrote: |
| You are trying to come across as more clever than you really are, which is painful to watch. |
Glad you think so. Want to express an opinion on the subject? |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Can both of you not discuss that in this thread? |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
To seklarwia
My current bad JHS is more fun than my ok but boring one. Seems like things actually happen here. but it is rough to teach the kids. It is hard to compete with Yu-Gi-Oh, PSP and what not. Which is rough on the teachers. |
Actually, my bad HS is easier to teach than my famous one. I have a much closer relationship with the bad kids who are by nature extemely confident, not afraid of having the wrong answer, are inquisitive and always have their own strong opinions (you don't get any of those wishy-washy neutral answers that "good" students have been programmed to give) and they are not afraid to voice them.
The kids think I'm cool and cute which always helps in a school full of image driven kids.
As for PSPs, DSs, manga, etc, I don't openly call them on it. DSs are easy; as I move around the class I just take it, close it and put it inside their desk which normally gets a quiet apology in response (although I don't wait around expecting one) and that's that. With PSPs you can't just turn them off; I take it, press pause and put it in their desk. They will normally take it out again to save and then turn it off. I do the same with manga; take a sheet of paper (I always have some with me for the kids that come to class with nothing) use it as a bookmark and put it in their desk. I don't make a big deal out of it or even give voice to the issue and 95% of the time that works. I rarely have to do these kinds of things these day though as most of the kids will now simply switch off and put away the manga when the chime goes. The last few boys who are a bit more stubborn, are my helpers and assistants since they are exremely vain and love the attention... I think the key is to be their friend (they listen to their friends; teachers are the enemy) and don't make a big deal/embarrass them infront of their peers by openly calling them on their bad behaviour.
Some people might feel, "But we are their teacher, not their friend!" Good luck to them! |
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spidr245
Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:12 am Post subject: |
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It does make you feel bad for the kids who don't aspire to be anything great. But at least they have some motivation to do something. It's better than just staying home and becoming a NEET.
I do remember doing a lesson where I ask students what they want to be. Some of them seriously said they want to work at 7-11 or be a taxi driver. Honestly, it sucks when you know their skills and know they can be something much more, but they don't think they can. They lack the confidence. If you have kids like this, maybe you can push them (a little) and they (or someone relevant) will listen.
I have a kid who is really great at drawing but is completely lacking in things like science, history and English. He would just doodle on his desk or some scratch paper during English class (probably other classes too) instead of doing the work. He would just draw whatever is in front of him; classroom setting, the scenery outside, etc. The level of detail was beyond words for a kid his age. (I'm exaggerating, but I think he's that good.) I would talk to him sometimes during class that maybe he should try to pursue something related to drawing. His reply were things such as, "Stupid people like me can't do anything," or "My teachers always say it's just drawing."
I hinted to the JTE a few times that he may be bad at English, but he definitely had a talent when it came to drawing. The JTE actually listened and passed it along to the homeroom teacher. The kid is going to be attending one of those specialized high schools now. I think he might've been another Lawson's clerk if not for that. (He did say some number of times that he just planned on working at the local Lawson's.)
Of course, things don't always work out this way. But you'll never know if you don't try. (Just don't push too hard or you might bring trouble upon yourself.)
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| spidr245 wrote: |
| (As for your girls, they may already be doing that... The young girls these days care more about money than they do about their bodies/dignity.) |
You probably need to check your judeo-xtian morality at the door: it's not up to you to pass judgement on them. |
Wow, I didn't expect this response to get that much attention from everyone. I wasn't passing judgment. I don't know rxk22's girls nor what they do. I was merely saying that it is a possibility and just restating what girls who do that sort of thing say.
And I don't understand why it needs to be Judeo-Christian. Can't we just refer to them as ethics? I just thought Japanese people valued these things (i.e. dignity and taking care of one's self) just as much as the next person. Anyhow, let's (all of us, that is) stop this part right here. |
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kathrynoh
Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| What's wrong with being a Lawson's clerk or going into a blue collar job anyway? Maybe some of these don't want to work their guts out to getting to uni and end up as miserable salarymen having to put in insane hours. At least at Lawsons you finish your shift and get to home. |
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spidr245
Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| kathrynoh wrote: |
| What's wrong with being a Lawson's clerk or going into a blue collar job anyway? Maybe some of these don't want to work their guts out to getting to uni and end up as miserable salarymen having to put in insane hours. At least at Lawsons you finish your shift and get to home. |
There's nothing wrong with being a Lawson's clerk. But there are those who do want a chance to work their guts out and become more. If they don't want to, fine. But if they can get a chance at something more, we should try and encourage/help them. You only become a miserable salary-man if you choose to let yourself become one. (And you don't always get to go home when you finish your shift at Lawson's.) |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| rjx22 wrote: |
| rjx22"What happens to the bad kids? |
They become bad adults! 
| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| spidr245 wrote: |
| (As for your girls, they may already be doing that... The young girls these days care more about money than they do about their bodies/dignity.) |
You probably need to check your judeo-xtian morality at the door: it's not up to you to pass judgement on them. |
well I'm not a Judeo-Xtian but I just so happen to agrea with spidr245 
And yes I can pass jusgment thank you very much just like you can pass judgemtn on us for passing judgemnt.  |
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wayne432
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 255
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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What's wrong with those jobs? Nothing necessarily, but I think a lot of kids in Japan lack any motivation to do any better.
For example, if they work full time at a convenience store or fast food place, they could work hard as a store clerk and try to be a manager, but many would just stay with the same job and not move up.
I know some friends that worked at a fast food place 5 days a week part time for 5 years... they could have become full-time and gotten higher pay, not to mention some benefits, but they didn't want the responsibility.
As for the "bad" kids at school, I agree with what some other people have said. "Bad" schools are my favorite. I don't have anything quite like what some people have described, but my lowest school isn't considered very favorable, has some dropouts, and many kids don't go to college. But the things I've taught them, they remember... much better than the "smart" kids who are just focused on tests and perfection. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| kathrynoh wrote: |
| What's wrong with being a Lawson's clerk or going into a blue collar job anyway? Maybe some of these don't want to work their guts out to getting to uni and end up as miserable salarymen having to put in insane hours. At least at Lawsons you finish your shift and get to home. |
Exactly! There's a lot of people bringing their own assumptions into the discussion. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Cool Teacher wrote: |
| rjx22 wrote: |
| rjx22"What happens to the bad kids? |
They become bad adults!
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Well, not *all* of them. heck, not even a majority of them, I suspect. They just tend to end up in jobs that don't require a HS diploma or college education. Where I was in Iwate, a fair number of the kids only went to HS because they wanted to spend 4 more years goofing off before they had to work on the family farm or forestry business, And their parents were perfectly comfy with that as far as I could tell. Talking to them about it, none of them were terribly concerned about the future job, but just didn't want to start it at 15. At the same time, there were others who did want to do well and go on to more education/training after HS.
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| spidr245 wrote: |
| (As for your girls, they may already be doing that... The young girls these days care more about money than they do about their bodies/dignity.) |
You probably need to check your judeo-xtian morality at the door: it's not up to you to pass judgement on them. |
well I'm not a Judeo-Xtian but I just so happen to agrea with spidr245
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Good for you, although I think you've mis-read what I wrote.
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And yes I can pass jusgment thank you very much just like you can pass judgemtn on us for passing judgemnt.
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Apparently I'm not allowed to pass judgement. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Well my deal with working at a conbini is that you can't live on your own working there. Save for becoming a manager. Otherwise you live with your parents and can never move on with your life.
But in Japan, you either make decent money and have no outside life. Or you have your own life, and make zilch.
seklarwia, can't turn off their PSPs/DSs as I am not empowered to do that. Besides my kids wouldn't stop, they are checked out of class for the most part.
But what is also weird is that they think I am somesorta cool bad@$$. Which I am not by any means. It's like they have no concept on if/how cool you are if you are a foreigner. It's kinda funny, in an odd sorta way. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
| seklarwia, can't turn off their PSPs/DSs as I am not empowered to do that. Besides my kids wouldn't stop, they are checked out of class for the most part. |
Nope, I don't turn off any consoles; that might make them lose data which is bound to piss them off to no end. If you read back you'll see that I put DSs into sleep mode and simply pause the PSPs. I don't have the official authority to do it either, but I do it anyway. And it only works because they see me as a friend not simply a teacher.
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| But what is also weird is that they think I am somesorta cool bad@$$. Which I am not by any means. It's like they have no concept on if/how cool you are if you are a foreigner. It's kinda funny, in an odd sorta way. |
Oh no! I'm not cool and cute just because I'm a foreigner.
As I've posted in a number of threads before (so I won't bore people again here) I do many things and share many interests with the kids to develop a close relationship with them. On top of that, they like the way that I don't favor students who are good at or like English and my reasons for not doing so. They like that they can talk to me and I understand their troubles - and it's at times like these that I point out that I'm not that much older than them and was a student myself until only 4 years ago... at which point they stop listening to shout, "Kawaii!" at my slightly miffed expression. Some of them like the way I dress or sound and try to mimic me (not just girls either  ). A number of them want to experience some of the things that I have or want to learn to view things the way I do... basically, I'm cool because many of them can relate to me more than their other teachers and they feel that I understand them better than many adults do. Hell, I'm crazy fond of the students at my "bad" school because I understand them and can relate to them more than the kids at my high level school. |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| kathrynoh wrote: |
| What's wrong with being a Lawson's clerk or going into a blue collar job anyway? Maybe some of these don't want to work their guts out to getting to uni and end up as miserable salarymen having to put in insane hours. At least at Lawsons you finish your shift and get to home. |
Exactly! There's a lot of people bringing their own assumptions into the discussion. |
I hop one day I can inspire muy students to be like them.! |
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