Job Discussion Forums

[askiptochina]

I have 2 questions, one about bad classes and one about good/great students in good classes.

For the most part, these "kids" are really good with their behavior. Even when I scold them in class, they take it instead of bouncing me off the wall (these are big and tall high school students).

I teach 36 classes (within 2 weeks) and about 6 will need to be yelled at. I wouldn't do this if it didn't work. The main problem is them being quiet, then next is them taking notes or interacting. The other 30 classes kind of work with me. Sometimes they decide as a group who will answer, other times I divide them in groups.

Dividing them in groups has really worked out, but it costs time because I am saying the same thing 5 times or so to each smaller group. I am trying to find a way to work together as a whole. Should I simply ignore the 6 bad classes and go on with my day?

I don't ask them general questions, because I know that will just stun them. Either it is YES or NO, good or bad. Even if they weren't paying attention, they could flip a coin and be right 50% of the time. I save multiple choice questions for classes with students who can make a sentence. This is why it is so important for them to be quiet. They don't know how to pronounce simple words. After I yell at a bad class and single out one student, the class sees this and they immediately quiet down. Then I go over with a student, and we work out a sentence together. I correct them, they try again, and then they are saying the sentence correctly. This is good until 5 minutes later, then the whispering starts up. With 45 students, the volume is loud enough to drone out anyone talking. Most students won't talk as loud as me, which means the class has to be even more quiet to hear them.

There seems to be a fundamental lack of awareness that in order to speak one has to listen first to what the sounds should be like. They won't even open their "ears" to receive. I thought maybe it was because they thought my classes were kind of a recess, but they don't treat it like that. If I tell them to get their books or notebooks out, they follow what I say. The Chinese teachers who speak English rarely use English with me, which makes me also concerned. They spend all their time in the office sifting through English tests and books. They treat it like English is somehow like math, where you don't need to speak it.

So, with that said, 30 classes are between good and great. What happens if 3 students are participating and speaking, and you want to continue the lesson, do you continue or try to get the rest of the class understanding? It's likely some have understood but aren't interacting. In high school, there is such resistance even though they are quite capable students. I only have 40 minutes with each class, so I want to get a complete lesson "projected" rather than fall short and make sure everyone has less than a sufficient understanding.

The analogy I once gave an elementary school that wanted me to teach many visiting schools only one time per semester was that it was like giving one crumb to everyone, leaving them all to starve, instead of feeding a smaller group that is interested. This in essence is the reason for having an AP class. If you agree with this, then how would you address this to a school that already is trying to manage 1500 students at least and are not that keen on trying to regroup students so they are in an AP English class?

[xiguagua]

This is a typical problem of virtually all high schools with oral English class. Basically, they have more important things to worry about with gaokao than learning spoken English. That's just the way things are.

The only thing I would suggest is maybe you will have to create separate lessons for your problem classes that creates a more lively atmosphere. If the students are having fun they will want to participate. But yelling or shouting at the students is not going to help the situation at all.

Personally.....if I had 36 classes, that means you are teaching 18 classes a week, so they only see you once every two weeks. Which is not enough time to worry about a couple problem classes, especially if 30 of them are good. I know it sounds horrible, but you're not going to save those who aren't trying. So don't waste your time. Focus on the few students that are actually trying to work and helping them the best you can. There are students that are interested and there are students who will not care regardless of what you do, so I wouldn't waste my time slamming my face into the wall for 40 minutes trying to accommodate a few students who don't care.

[7969]

I'd say that by posing a few questions regarding classroom management, he's taken the "otherwise" route and is making an effort to learn.

[Guerciotti]

Maybe we should give the OP sustantial credit for giving a dam.

I lack education credentials other than China and tax courses with mature students, but I might suggest telling the other students this is a study session, not a social hour. Tell them to study whatever they like, and shut up. Those who wish may participate.

Maybe it's worth a try. I do this with my university students and it works. I'm unaware of 'classroom management' per se, I just want to know what works. This works and I avoid wasting class time fighting a fight I cannot win.

just my 2 cents.
G

[xiguagua]

I might also add that it's very important to learn how to discipline high school students in China. The students here react to some methods of punishment much better than students from the west, certain things like making an individual stand or writing their name on the board works wonders. I've known other FT's who have thrown erasers at students, screamed at them, and all these crazy things that I think are just completely unnecessary. One teacher I knew got to the point where he didn't even teach in class anymore, he just went to his classes and told them to study while he did nothing. THAT is NOT the point you want to get to.

I am so happy I started teaching in China with high school students because I learned so much more than if I started teaching University, which to be frank is sometimes quite dull without the excitement of an occasional disorderly student. Also it's important to learn some basic Chinese, most importantly the bad words. When I first came here, I received plenty of rude comments simply because I couldn't understand, but now that I know what they are saying it takes a sharp look at them and ordering to stand and staying on top of them and they will understand that this is a class like every other. But honestly, if you don't get on it at the beginning you will lose the class forever. That was something I didn't know until it was too late my first year.

[askiptochina]

I did 4 classes this morning, the higher the class number often means it is a better class. I stand by my actions because I have seen positive results.

[MisterButtkins]

What works for me is selectively booting students. So like, if everyone is talking, yell at them to be quiet. Then, if they still keep talking, say you are going to boot the next person who talks. Then boot that person and anyone who talks at all after that. Boot anyone who even whispers. Especially boot the nice nerdy girl who has never thought she might cause discipline problems in the class, because that's a girl who is really bothered by booting. You can boot once and she'll never give you problems again.

It might sound like I am booting left and right but boot just 1-2 kids right at the beginning of the semester and you won't have problems for the rest of the year. If you do have problems, boot more!

Another thing that works well is calling a student who is talking or obviously not paying attention to answer a question you know they can't answer. Make sure the class is quiet when you call them. Then, just let them stand there not knowing the answer for a long time. Don't say anything, just glare at them for a good 20-30 seconds. They will feel more and more awkward as the time gets longer. Then let them sit down. The other students will know that play time is over.

Some of you might think these are mean tactics, but I am actually very well liked by most of my students. They tell me that they like my class because I am 'like a real teacher', not playing games like the other FTs.

[xiguagua]

MisterButtkins gave some good advice.

To what the OP said about yelling......teachers should not scream and shout at their students as a disciplinary tactic. It does not motivate students the same as it motivates a football player or athlete, if your math teacher started screaming at you when you weren't listening I don't think you would suddenly have a great epiphany to become a good student. You will resent that teacher more.

Yeah, it sucks that you were a poor student, but that is also your fault. Learning is 50/50 in school, if the teacher can't teach then it effects students learning (unless they learn it by themselves) but if the student is non responsive then that's not your fault as a teacher. I don't believe in wasting the time of good students so I can focus on the students who are going to get a 200 on gaokao because they're busy smoking and sitting in the internet bars all day and night. I don't think that's fair for the students who are there to learn. 40 minutes of class every two weeks is not enough time to waste on the students who don't care at all about English.

I think it's great that you want to help everyone, just don't waste too much time in class. Out of class advice for you, when I was teaching junior/high school I was outside playing basketball with them almost every day. I like basketball so that's one incentive, but what happens is that those boys who don't care about English suddenly realize that you're a person and they are going to WANT to talk to you, about basketball or whatever. I noticed a huge change with these "bad boys" that they were so interested in talking to me on the basketball court that they were paying attention and even trying in the classroom. Also the rudeness thing kinda went away too, they stopped talking and misbehaving in class. I dunno your personality at all, but that's what I was doing, so maybe it can open the door for some new ideas for you.

[Opiate]

[Baozi man]

Classroom management is just another term for common courtesy. Students who want to do whatever are free to so do as long as it is not disruptive. Students who sit in the front row and chat like they are in a park are going to get a swift rebuke. If that doesn't stop it, they will be asked to leave the classroom.

Problem is that some students are defiant. They simply ignore me. Then I go up the ladder to find a teacher who they do fear. Usually that is the end of the problem. Once, at the behest of the discipline office, a student was removed from the class by school security.

Acts which may be construed as violent, such as throwing things, are an invitation to anarchy. Some students may throw things back. The key is to deescalate situations, not make them worse.

You can almost be certain that if there is a violent confrontation in your classroom, regardless of the circumstances, you are going to lose. Once these things end up in the hands of the PSB, where violence can lead, your school guanxi isn't going to amount to much.

You don't know who the friends of your student's parents are.

Bad girls are especially problematic. You need to identify the leaders of the social groups. Be careful with them. They can turn your classroom into a circus. You have to realize, in some situations, you are not as powerful as influential students. I once angered a very pretty girl who had a large following in the class. I really had to work to win her back. In the meantime, the classes were troublesome.

In general, Chinese people seem quite forgiving; however, their racist hatred of foreigners can influence their attitude toward FTs,

I once angered a school administrator who, normally, had nothing to do With FTs. To settle the score, however, he finagled control of my telephone [landline]. He then would not pay the bill, so it was turned off. I had to go on strike to get it turned on again.

These kind of scenarios, whether with students or other staff members, are not useful.

[El Chupacabra]

Get yourself a taser. Or at least a fake cell phone that shocks people. Then you can save your lungs by not yelling so much.

Do you really have to yell at them?

[rogerwilco]

Getting angry in China is losing face for yourself.

Yes, by shouting at the students you may be getting them to be quieter, that one day.
But, they are also losing respect for you.

Stopping speaking and staring at the offending student can be very effective.
You are putting all the focus on that one student without having to say a word.

I never tell my students to be quiet. I tell them to be polite.
They are constantly being advised to "be a harmonious society" by the Chinese media.
So, by asking them to be polite I am using their own culture and brainwashing against them.

They do not want to lose face for all of their classmates, and maybe all Chinese people, by being the student that is not being polite and "harmonious" in front of the foreigner.

One trick that I use is moving all the students that sit in the back row to the front row. That places them in front of all their classmates and also directly in front of me.
If one of them then dares to disrupt the class then I start to politely focus
all my attention on that one student.

Sometimes I ask all the girls sitting in the front row to go back and inform the boys sitting in the back that they will be changing seats with the girls, and the boys will now be sitting in front. The girls understand exactly what I am doing and I do not even need to speak to the disruptive boys.

Being strict, but also being polite and having a sense of humor is my method of classroom management.

Showing respect to all the students will probably lead to most of the students showing more respect for you.

[askiptochina]

[El Chupacabra]

[xiguagua]

You're going to have a stressful year. You made post asking for advice, yet you refuse to change. Your classes are only going to get worse as the school year goes on. Everyone here has said yelling and "going ballistic" on students is not a going to solve the problem.

Accusing me of "deceiving" my students is ridiculous. I stated I liked playing basketball, so I was happy to play with them and make friends. The added benefit is that they improve their English and our class environment.

Stop being defensive about your own teaching methodology and try learning from other peoples experiences. Fact is, when the teacher gets angry and starts shouting, you are losing face whether you admit it or not and the students do lose respect for you. Enjoy the rest of your school year.