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Ariadne
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 960
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 Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Alrighty, that's showin' 'em, by golly!
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Seems like no matter what those with experience say Igor is still going to be determined to believe that there is some mass conspiracy incorporating examiners, the BC, training schools, and universities without even showing the slightest reasoning why he thinks or proof of it. |
Isn't it reasoning when the post says why they do it? Assuming that i have beliefs is just bold and perhaps boastful since others apparently have experiences. There sure must be a few posters that make the 300 quai hourly, so sorry to be p*ssing in your pies. I can only presume i've made such money while my colleague's employer imposed on him. Then, i can only insinuate the majority of the IELTS team is satisfied with results and moderations as it's all so straight forward. They do what the BC says and they'll get a larger pie to eat, but if they don't and if they are moderated too many times..... Prove otherwise! |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Again, can't get a firm handle on what you are trying to say in this post, IgorG. I'm not trying to be offensive, but are you speaker of English as a second language? I feel like I have stumbled into a dialogue where everybody is speaking confusingly about an enigmatic topic in a language which resembles English, but is impossible to comprehend. Black cat in a dark room when you're blind and all that. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| 1. You CAN'T coach someone to get a 6 or even a 5. They have to have the ability to actually speak at a level that meet the criteria. We get a lot of people who have been very obviously coached and we know that because they all say the same freaking thing. I could quote them verbatim on a number of topics. And you know what? It doesn't get them that 6. |
I agree that they have to have the ability, which they can only gain over a period of time, definitely not over a month. However, a trainer who knows the criteria and has the inside knowledge/experience may bring the "freaking thing" to live sooner than others. And, that's what the local employers like, the efficiency in someone who can compromise himself/herself for a disposable income, a work permit, accomodation, returned flight, a chance to meet a few hot chicks ready to go down on their knees etc.
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| 2. None of the examiners that I know of work in IELTS prep schools. Until this past March, we legally couldn't. A lot of examiners work in, say, the British International School or at SBC or one of the other joint venture programs. Do we coach the kids? Hell no. IELTS doesn't even figure in the curriculum. Most of us do EAP. IELTS is just a stepping stone the kids have to deal with, not us. First they have to pass our course, which has nothing to do with IELTS. When I said earlier that my IELTS training and experience helped me in the classroom it was because I was better able to note when kids were not on track (aka doomed to fail). I would add more speaking practice or assign more structured writing to try to ameliorate the situation. This is not coaching, it's teaching. |
Until this past March, i know of a few that have worked in IELTS prep schools, some for many years, although the regulation is/was against it. The rule is/was the problem and what constitutes an IELTS prep school perhaps complicates things. A counseling business firm, private language center, any international school with foundation programs or even a uni may carry out preps at any suitable time. The BC's recruiting techniques have been well focused on the applicants experiences out of, or in such places. In any case, being in an EAP program means that at some point the kids will have to undergo the proficiency exams, which will require suitable courses for them. A FT surely may have a clause or two in the employment agreement, although for a few extra bucks and more secure standard of living some bend over quietly.
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| 3. People who run the IELTS prep courses here generally are not examiners (because of the legalities) and have no real clue as to what's involved and, yes, we get a lot of the same memorized crap from the candidates that in no way came from a competent or qualified teacher or examiner. Maybe someone got a 7 on the exam and decided they knew what was what. Who knows. |
Let's repeat ourselves. I know there are people/examiners, who have run and still run such courses (because of the ambitious BC's regulations) and let me tell you that they do have a clue as to what's involved. And, yes, it's a pain in the arse for honest schools, businesses. From my very experience, there are quite a few incompetent and poorly qualified examiners, although they aren't to be blamed as much as the organization should be. The rules of engagement are the issue. But keep us blinded
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| 4. The unis that hold the exams have nothing to do with it. They rent rooms. Seriously. I just spent 2 days doing exams and the kids came in, I interviewed them, I scored them, the end. Where the interference enters, I have no clue. We are rigorously remarked and monitored as Sasha says and there's no way we could fudge the numbers even if we wanted to--- and when would we be able to? Seriously- I've never once examined one of my own students in 3 years of examining. Even if I was corrupt, the random distribution of candidates, examiners and centres means you really can't be bribed in any way. |
I agree that directly they have nothing to do with IELTS. But if you constantly rent a room for rapists, you'll have something to do with it then. Sorry, i don't mean examiners take advantage of those fine young desperate girls that so much wish to go abroad. The fudging is somewhere else. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| IgorG. Apart from the unnecessary sexual remarks in your last post, the only remarkable thing I have gleaned is that you seem to think that the IELTS criteria are totally secret, and that examiners have some sort of cryptic knowledge of these which puts them at an advantage. There is a public version of the criteria available online for all teachers and learners. Read what the criteria are and hey presto! you too could evaluate candidate performance reasonably accurately. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Again, can't get a firm handle on what you are trying to say in this post, IgorG. I'm not trying to be offensive, but are you speaker of English as a second language? I feel like I have stumbled into a dialogue where everybody is speaking confusingly about an enigmatic topic in a language which resembles English, but is impossible to comprehend. Black cat in a dark room when you're blind and all that. |
I accept the firm handle from a Moscow EAP prospective, especially on this topic. There's plenty in the post that indicates how one can stumble into a serious debate. No, it isn't insulting to me, never mind the regulations. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| IgorG. Apart from the unnecessary sexual remarks in your last post, the only remarkable thing I have gleaned is that you seem to think that the IELTS criteria are totally secret, and that examiners have some sort of cryptic knowledge of these which puts them at an advantage. There is a public version of the criteria available online for all teachers and learners. Read what the criteria are and hey presto! you too could evaluate candidate performance reasonably accurately. |
Perhaps it's not about reading the criteria but using it to evaluate. Sure the band 5, 6, or 7 have its explanations and i could even see it through a bottle of столица, which is also public. So much for the "remarkable" and "unnecessary" addressing of the messenger. Bring more in although focus on the message, and especially the topic please. |
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Ariadne
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 960
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Sasha, you may as well admit defeat. So many have tried, so many have failed. Even so, it would be entertaining to watch you keep trying. I'll be rooting for you.
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| IgorG, it's hard to bring anything more to this topic that has not already been done so. What the topic is exactly, I'm not too sure, which doesn't help. Circular arguments, not addressing input in a logical manner, and claiming that I am addressing the poster and not the post - none of this clarifies what deficiencies you believe IELTS suffers from. There are plenty of legitimate gripes one can have against both the BC and IELTS, but there is precious little written here about it. Dunno what the problem is for sure, but I do know that it is boring me now, and I may very well have to admit defeat, as Ariadne is predicting : ) |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Are there really so many losers around? The criteria was to be read "presto", so follow your compatriots. Click again and reply appropriately as a teacher. Don't worry! The BC isn't closing down tomorrow.
There are thin lines in between the band 5-7, which only a trained examiner that knows what the BC is looking for may establish. This is one of the main reasons TOEFL makes more sense. And, the abuse is also not as common there. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry IgorG, but I am not the one being abusive, nor calling anyone a loser. As for the remarks about 'only a trained IELTS examiner' can read the very 'thin lines' between a bands 5 to 7, well... that's just plainly not true.
E.g. for Writing GRA band 5 the candidate will only display a limited range of structures. Subordinate clauses are rare. Few if any sentences are error-free.
Writing GRA band 7 will see very few errors which impede the message, error-free sentences are frequent, and complex sentences are frequent and skilfully handled.
Night and day really. But that insight is the benefit of being a sworn member of the great IELTS conspiracy : ) |
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JayCee86
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:36 am Post subject: |
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Great, so because Igor believes something to be true that is now proof of it.
Igor thinks therefore it is.
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| They do what the BC says and they'll get a larger pie to eat, but if they don't and if they are moderated too many times..... Prove otherwise! |
Bit difficult to do as you forgot to write the second half of your sentence. However I agree with the first part. Examiners should do what the BC says - i.e. conduct and mark/grade interviews according to internationally used criteria (or as Igor thinks - the locally designed criteria for that one specific place).
As for there being a fine line between a 5 and a 7 - ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, you really are a clown. See what Sasha said about the actual differences. |
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Opiate
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 630
Location: Qingdao
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| JayCee86 wrote: |
Great, so because Igor believes something to be true that is now proof of it.
Igor thinks therefore it is.
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Feel free to argue with him. Though highly entertaining, it is not productive.
/grabs popcorn |
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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:23 am Post subject: |
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Joke of the day:
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| This is one of the main reasons TOEFL makes more sense. And, the abuse is also not as common there. |
TOEFL is possibly the most mis-used and abused English examination of them all.
Apart from which, just how does TOEFL test someones ability to communicate in spoken English and hold a conversation? |
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Baozi man
Joined: 06 Sep 2011
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:26 am Post subject: |
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I have been somewhat surprised by Igor's point of view. I had the sense that he simply sees things in a different light than others, including myself. If he is Russian born and raised, that might explain why.
Is that the case Igor? |
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