Job Discussion Forums

[Tretyakovskii]

These kinds of discussions always seem to break into two camps, one of which cannot understand why the others would resist, and the second marvelling that there are those so willing to be pushed around.

The second group is willing to risk harm, even death, and considers that to surrender is the worse outcome: the first finds little worth dying for.

I don�t think it�s because the one doesn�t value their life, it�s just that they find other things of sufficient value to risk losing it. I thought D.L. and Guy pretty well summed it all up.

For the group willing to give up in the face of superior force, where would you find to draw the line, and say, �Basta!�, even if it costs you your life?

[Guy Courchesne]

Someone on Dave's called you a sheep? Missed it...next time it happens, you call DL. She'll set em straight.

All kidding aside, this scenario being fictional seems to let us all imagine ourselves at our best or worst in it...I'm assuming no one posting here has had to face the barrel of a gun, considering the responses.

Following that, I'd never put either of my kids in harm's way....possessions matter far far less than my kids or my life. Then again, if it were my children in danger, then there isn't anything that could stop me from protecting them, or trying anyway.

[Tretyakovskii]

Most of us are lucky enough not to have been victims of anything verging on the risks we are talking about.

As for me, as an adult, I've been assaulted once on the street by a man who lept on me as I passed an alley in the early hours of the morning (Kazakhstan). I fought him off, and he abandoned the effort.

I put up with a lot at work!, but I won't accept physical threats from anyone. My impulse is to tell anyone who threatens me to go f... themselves. (So far, I've only had the opportunity to do that on phoned threats!)

I've given my phone number to all the single women who live in my building and asked them to call me if they hear anything disturbing at night.

Anytime I hear anything suspicious during the night, myself, I go out and investigate it. I imagine this contributes to the safety of all of us in the building, in some small way.

On of my first impressions of Mexican people was of a man telling me how in his neighborhood, when there is anything threatening going on all the men grab a baseball bat and go out to investigate. Acting in concert, they are ready to defend what is theirs: they never know, going into it, just what they will be facing but they are prepared to accept the risks. I thought that a good thing.

Anytime something I perceive as threatening happens, my heart pounds and I have trouble breathing, just as anyone whose autonomic system is still functioning would, but it doesn't determine what I think, or do.

[Guy Courchesne]

My neighborhood is pretty close knit too...most people here have lived in the same homes for some time...everyone around is somebody's cousin. My area is a mix of blue collar, Mormons (dunno why), and middle class families.

Last year someone thought they saw a kid on the street with a gun...it wasn't more than 15 minutes before the street was full of parents and police looking for him (there's a largish police station nearby). Turned out to be a toy gun, but it was my first introduction to the neighborhood reaction to such a scenario.

[BadBeagleBad]

[spanglish]

The last time I was robbed, it was at knife-point and by a nasty gang. A police station was very close and there were witnesses; nobody did anything. I witnessed a violent robbery across the street from my house a week ago in broad daylight. There were people all around and and I was the only person who took action (I ran to the police station, getting there within 30 seconds). There was only 1 thief and he escaped with $1,000 USD in Colombian pesos and 2 cell phones. I narrowly escaped a robbery a few months ago, by jerking free and running away. Once again: people all around and nobody did anything.

Perhaps there is a greater sense of community in D.F. than Bogota. A saying you'll hear in Colombia is, 'no se meta' - 'don't get involved.' There certainly are many cases where by-standers get involved, but in my experience there is a reigning sense of fear, apathy and 'every man for himself.'

I suppose being a very polarized country with extreme inequality, a long history of violent conflict and endemic corruption has eroded trust and social bonds.

I don't feel that keeping Colombia's streets safe is my battle. I'm a bit of a typical American in that I hate the idea of submitting to a thief and giving them free reign of the streets. I also know, however, that it means nothing to them to kill me for a cheap cell phone and I'm just a guest in this country.

[Guy Courchesne]

[spanglish]

[the peanut gallery]

Matamoros. July of 2002. I had crossed from Texas with a Canadian friend of mine. 5 minutes down the road my friend made a lane change without using his indicator and was immediately pulled over. Ontario plates and two foreigners was an easy target for these corrupt upholders of the law. We were pulled from the vehicle at gunpoint and placed in handcuffs and thrown in the back of their cruiser. One cop got behind the wheel of the cruiser and his partner did likewise in our car. We were driven about 10 minutes to a fairly secluded area. We were then escorted from the cruiser and repeatedly asked where our money was. I had hid our USD's when i saw we were going to be pulled over.

My resistance (defending my wallet) to this violation ended as soon as i felt the barrel of the gun on my back. At that moment i though of my mother, father, and sister. My girlfriend of the time didnt enter my mind (perhaps a hint that the relationship wouldnt last...and it didnt lol). I didnt think of the immoral act taking place. I didnt think of the injustice of it all. I didnt think of any of the altruistic comments posted on this thread. I didnt think of ANYTHING other than my survival.

I am stating the obvious when i say the overriding emotion and instinct of a human being is self preservation, the will to live no matter what. Community, standing up for oneself, or bravery plays no part in an instinctual reaction under duress.

Its all very easy to post on a message board what one would do. I sincerely hope that none of my fellow ESL Cafe contributors ever experience what i did. But if they do, I guarantee altruism, duty and bravery will never enter their minds.

[BadBeagleBad]

Good question, Spanglish. I will say I have a few areas that I feel very safe in, just because I know a lot of people and I know they would help me, or I could run into a business for help. Not so much in an area where I don't know people. I think for a lot of people that is the thing, in their own neighborhood they feel like they are in a small town, in other areas, not so much. I did have an incident in the Alameda where I was being harassed by a salesman, who just kept following me, and insisting I buy some of his crap. A policeman approached and asked if I needed help, and I did ask him for help. But when he found out I wasn't a tourist, he was kind of annoyed. Not sure why.......We have two cops that patrol the park near my house and I always say "Hi" to them and smile, just in case I ever need them. They have also made comments about my dogs when I have one or more of them out for a walk. But I am also a city girl. I don't carry a purse, I don't go out with much money, and I would hand over everything the minute they asked for it.
I am not prepared to die for a 500 peso cell phone and 100 pesos in cash.

[Guy Courchesne]

[the peanut gallery]

Guy,

You stated earlier that nothing would stop you from defending your daughter. I do not have children but i totally agree with your point. Self preservation extends to our families.

[Guy Courchesne]

[the peanut gallery]

Spanglish,

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

"A saying you'll hear in Colombia is, 'no se meta' - 'don't get involved.'"

Here in Mexico im fond of "no te metas con mi cucu!"

[Tretyakovskii]