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toiyeuthitmeo
Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 213
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 Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Unclear on the reason for your sarcasm/snarkiness here...
If your tone implies that it's hard to feel bad for those at RMIT who were getting paid the best wages in town with minimal qualifications, I can see your point. |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:23 am Post subject: |
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I only knew of a couple of "educators" who did not have advanced degrees, and the two I knew had worked hard and waited a long time for the promotion.
Everyone I know personally who left was an educator with an advanced degree, including a Phd amongst them. Some of the people who left had been there for many years and were leaders. Most of the management has left.
I don't have the specifics about the changes in pay, but I do understand that they made it worth while for the highest paid people to leave with severance packages.
The wages were good, but as university jobs go, the hours were long and the holidays few. Having only worked at universities (yes, my good fortune and also hard work) I can say that they are the most parsimonious with holidays and the strictest about time spent on campus, and offer the very least autonomy when it comes to teaching.
It was a great job for a teaching institute/hogwan, not so much so for a university. |
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Brunouno
Joined: 18 Apr 2013
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| toiyeuthitmeo wrote: |
Have several friends still at RMIT and have what I'd like to think is a pretty good understanding of the over all market in VN.
The TL;DR is that any RMIT teacher who had a Delta or MA (even in unrelated field to language) was given a much less severe pay cut. Those lacking an MA or Delta were given plenty of notice about the impending change and a lot of them did get started on the Delta and will also face less severe pay cuts. IIRC RMIT even helped pay for the Delta for a lot of these guys.
Anyone with mimumum quals faced a big pay cut, like, huge. So a lot took off or will take off at end of current contracts. This even includes people who'd been there for years and reached the higher pay bracket ("Educator" I think it was called).
For years, RMIT teachers were making loads more money than other teaching gigs in Vietnam. Even my friends there will admit that they were probably over-paid. They were making as much as DOS/AMs at other language schools. This is with having no special certification other than a Uni degree and a CELTA-style cert. (And yes, more than a few boasting Delta, MA TESOL, or unrelated MA).
Lots of these folks didn't do much to improve their minimal qualifications, but just coasted happily making the big bucks and enjoying RMIT's ample teaching resources (which from my understanding means that lesson planning was not much of chore most of the time).
Teachers could move up the ladder to I think what is called the Educator position, which was basically just a higher pay grade. This was possible by seniority, so you had people on even more money who had not really done anything to advance except be there, not mess up, and perhaps gain favor with mgmnt.
Seniority is all fine and good in this regard, but the market and perhaps VN laws are now more interested in rewarding qualifications than years of experience. Furthermore there is an overall downward trend in pay and benefits. The schools research what each other are paying, and when the big guys like ILA start cutting bonuses and making pay raises harder to get, the rest of the schools take note. |
I did module 3 with The Distance Delta last September, and what you say could explain why quite a few of the candidates were from RMIT. |
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ttxor1
Joined: 04 Jan 2014
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| toiyeuthitmeo wrote: |
Have several friends still at RMIT and have what I'd like to think is a pretty good understanding of the over all market in VN.
The TL;DR is that any RMIT teacher who had a Delta or MA (even in unrelated field to language) was given a much less severe pay cut. Those lacking an MA or Delta were given plenty of notice about the impending change and a lot of them did get started on the Delta and will also face less severe pay cuts. IIRC RMIT even helped pay for the Delta for a lot of these guys.
Anyone with mimumum quals faced a big pay cut, like, huge. So a lot took off or will take off at end of current contracts. This even includes people who'd been there for years and reached the higher pay bracket ("Educator" I think it was called).
For years, RMIT teachers were making loads more money than other teaching gigs in Vietnam. Even my friends there will admit that they were probably over-paid. They were making as much as DOS/AMs at other language schools. This is with having no special certification other than a Uni degree and a CELTA-style cert. (And yes, more than a few boasting Delta, MA TESOL, or unrelated MA).
Lots of these folks didn't do much to improve their minimal qualifications, but just coasted happily making the big bucks and enjoying RMIT's ample teaching resources (which from my understanding means that lesson planning was not much of chore most of the time).
Teachers could move up the ladder to I think what is called the Educator position, which was basically just a higher pay grade. This was possible by seniority, so you had people on even more money who had not really done anything to advance except be there, not mess up, and perhaps gain favor with mgmnt.
Seniority is all fine and good in this regard, but the market and perhaps VN laws are now more interested in rewarding qualifications than years of experience. Furthermore there is an overall downward trend in pay and benefits. The schools research what each other are paying, and when the big guys like ILA start cutting bonuses and making pay raises harder to get, the rest of the schools take note. |
Thanks very much for this comprehensive update on RMIT/Vietnam, toiyeuthitmeo. I'd only quibble with you on the sentence "...but the market and perhaps VN laws are now more interested in rewarding qualifications than years of experience."
ILA clearly values experience, and particularly post-CELTA experience, over qualifications:
I personally know a number of teachers who have post-CELTA experience, but no Delta/MA TESOL, and are on scale 4 or 5. I know one person who has an MA TESOL, but no post-CELTA experience (when hired), and is on scale 1.
A question that keeps nagging me, then, is why does ILA value post-CELTA experience over a relevant advanced degree?
It can't be because teachers who have post-CELTA experience are better teachers than those with relevant MAs. How can one come to this conclusion when, I believe, there are less than 10 people in the company who currently hold an MA TESOL? |
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EFL Educator
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 988
Location: Cape Town
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:39 am Post subject: |
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It appears to me that a lot of schools in Vietnam don't care about one's experience teaching English anymore....I think this is due to a trend in the EFL industry in getting young newbies to teach English here with the most qualifications needed and/or required (MA TESOL + DELTA and offering them the lowest possible competitive wages available. I used to believe that one's professional development in EFL would eventually pay off...but not when I see teachers wages falling across the board!!  |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| ttxor1 wrote: |
I personally know a number of teachers who have post-CELTA experience, but no Delta/MA TESOL, and are on scale 4 or 5. I know one person who has an MA TESOL, but no post-CELTA experience (when hired), and is on scale 1.
A question that keeps nagging me, then, is why does ILA value post-CELTA experience over a relevant advanced degree?
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I think that's pretty stupid. The CELTA is the bare minimum of what any teacher should have. But an MA TESOL is basically the best ESL qualification you can get from a teacher. You learn about 100x as much in a MA TESOL program as you do in a 4 week CELTA course.
My guess is that since ILA offers CELTA course as a huge cash cow for their company, they're pushing getting one as being really important. "Oh, you have a MA in TESOL, sorry but we're going to put you at a lower pay bracket to those who have their CELTA. Btw, we do offer CELTA courses for $1,600."
The CELTA is just a 4 week course (no time commitment, rushed, abbreviated content taught, very cookie-cutter style of teaching) Basically, it's for people who want to travel around the world a bit and use teaching English as a way to fund it. MA TESOL is for people who know they want to be teachers. |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:18 am Post subject: |
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I agree, and it is way too focused on grammar and activities. Once you spend enough time in a classroom, you appreciate a more communicative approach to teaching - one based on language acquisition. And Celta, in 4 weeks, doesn't teach any more or anything more useful than a TEFL program in 4 weeks.
Let's see, MA, ABD, 10 year's teaching experience, but only a TEFL cert?, Sorry, that boy over their with a BA and a Celta has to be a better choice.
Oh! And he is blond! Hired! |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| And he knows it all and teaches "wanna" and "gonna" for academic English. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:42 am Post subject: |
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With the two shocking errors in your second most recent post, perhaps we should drop the attitude, sis; you're about as academic as I am mathematical.
The question is, can you find your errors?  |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
With the two shocking errors in your second most recent post, perhaps we should drop the attitude, sis; you're about as academic as I am mathematical.
The question is, can you find your errors? |
The horror, the horror |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, on an online discussion board I misspelled there, easy mistake. It is not formal English here. I wanna be able to make mistakes and I'm gonna. It took me years to figure that out. But what our students need to learn is not their piddling mistakes, but the ones that impeded communication.
Wanna and gonna make our students sound dumb, and some people actually teach it to them. Nitpicking about mistakes is just that, and adds nothing to the conversation. Or the education.
Besides, I want my students to get by on more than subsistence. |
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psychedelicacy
Joined: 05 Oct 2013
Posts: 180
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| isabel wrote: |
| Yes, on an online discussion board I misspelled there, easy mistake. |
To a person of low education, perhaps. To an English teacher, it should not be.
| Quote: |
| It is not formal English here. |
You are still expected to spell correctly in informal contexts. Accuracy has little to do with formality. Using 'their' instead of 'there' is not what one would expect of an English teacher even in an informal context such as this. Someone who works at McDonald's or cleans public toilets, on the other hand...
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| Wanna and gonna make our students sound dumb, and some people actually teach it to them. |
Many native speakers use 'gonna' and 'wanna', so yes, they should be brought to students' attention, though it's probably not appropriate for focus in academic English. I don't even know why you've introduced the topic. Is introducing random bugbears into conversations something you normally do?
| Quote: |
| Nitpicking about mistakes is just that, and adds nothing to the conversation. Or the education. |
Providing accurate, appropriate feedback to students is very important. Classes focusing entirely on 'communication' bring little in the way of value (learner progress) to students. It's quite possible to clarify student inaccuracies in an indirect, non-nitpicky and engaging fashion. Little wonder you couldn't hack RMIT. Did you fail your probationary observation? |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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To answer your last point, no, I failed nothing and spent a few years there.
The thread got a little off track while talking about qualifications and such. I'm pretty careful about my writing, but when I'm jotting off a quick reply on a chat board, maybe not so much.
I definitely give guidance to my students, but not so much to people randomly chatting online. |
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Dave_1
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:44 am Post subject: |
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I am seeing very long term RMIT educators have left..1/3rd have gone..all long termers and very professional teachers..these were people I recall were taking higher teaching qualifications part-time. Some of these people have families. I can bet they did not want the chaos of leaving RMIT and/or Vietnam when with young families. I worked there for a couple of years and it was good...and I can see why teachers settle for Saigon, establish lives there..but it sounds very unfair. RMIT were totally over staffed when I was there and some of us got paid well for doing very little in class teaching. Coordinators did no teaching, which was also not right. At times when Coordinators away, everything still ran fine...it was not a high productivity role they had. The 30 teachers sitting in teachers room 3 days a week not doing anything and coordinators under utilised was where management needed to look. That was where drain on productivity was, not on long termers with families now forced out.
So, it would seem it is no exaggeration to say RMIT has gone down hill. 1st serg welsh, if he is in contact with anyone there, will know there has been an exodus of long term teachers who knew the job well and kept newer arrivals right, knew what materials of the many worked. |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Dave_1 wrote: |
I am seeing very long term RMIT educators have left..1/3rd have gone..all long termers and very professional teachers..these were people I recall were taking higher teaching qualifications part-time. Some of these people have families. I can bet they did not want the chaos of leaving RMIT and/or Vietnam when with young families. I worked there for a couple of years and it was good...and I can see why teachers settle for Saigon, establish lives there..but it sounds very unfair. RMIT were totally over staffed when I was there and some of us got paid well for doing very little in class teaching. Coordinators did no teaching, which was also not right. At times when Coordinators away, everything still ran fine...it was not a high productivity role they had. The 30 teachers sitting in teachers room 3 days a week not doing anything and coordinators under utilised was where management needed to look. That was where drain on productivity was, not on long termers with families now forced out.
So, it would seem it is no exaggeration to say RMIT has gone down hill. 1st serg welsh, if he is in contact with anyone there, will know there has been an exodus of long term teachers who knew the job well and kept newer arrivals right, knew what materials of the many worked. |
Exactly right. The cream of the experienced educators have left, and many have families and small children, and have been there for years. The program has been struggling for several years, and it was obvious that there would be changes. Unfortunately, a lot of money was wasted on attempts to improve things (new programs and projects, etc.) that were poorly conceived and executed. I have to say, when I was there the coordinators were teaching classes, covering classes, and dealing with a lot. There always was a group, though, who seemed to do f'all and continually had the short schedules and few responsibilities. Favoritism is a fact of life, but it doesn't make it palatable to those outside of the golden circle.
Heaven knows how they will restructure things, but one thing is certain, the core faculty and the institutional memory have gone, the wages have gone way down, and it is hard to see that going in a good direction.
On the other hand, those who left got good severance packages, from what I have heard, and change can be a very good thing. |
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