Job Discussion Forums

[JMD]

So, I�m confused.

After 3 years in Harbin, I�m planning to relocate to Beijing. I have a great relationship with my former employer and they�ve allowed me to extend my Foreign Resident Permit until next February even though I�ve finished my contract with them.

The problem is that I�ve gotten conflicting information about what my legal status would be after I move to Beijing. Some sources seem to indicate that a residency permit is city specific and is rendered invalid when the resident moves. However, I (very cautiously ) contacted a few agencies that offer to changes visas, provide resident permits, etc, in order to find out if they could assist in changing the permit and what kind of fees they would charge. They all said that I didn�t need to do anything and that I was good until next February. Considering that they could potentially have made some money, they�re either right or they also had no clue�

So, could any of the more knowledgeable people tell me what is the real situation or direct me to a good source of information? I realise that the best solution would be to find a new employer in Beijing to take over my Permit, but since I�d prefer to teach university students and the term�s already begun, I know that my chances are slim of finding a suitable position until September.

As well, having spent a bit of time in Beijing, I know that the city is pretty �lose� in its enforcement of regulations when it come to foreigners. Is it true that foreigners in Beijing no longer have to register with the local Public Security Bureau? I know one guy that rented an apartment and taught at one of the biggest universities of the city while on a tourist visa�

Because of the above, I�m simply planning to move to Beijing, find a place to live and pick up some part-time work.. Is this feasible? What kind of hassles could I receive or lack thereof?

To add to the equation, I�m getting married to my fianc�e, a Harbin native, before I move. She will, of course, accompany me. Does this help my legal status in any way? Would she have to change her own residency status first?

Any information or advice would be greatly appreciated!

JM Duguay

[Roger]

When do people leaqrn to think?
OF course, you are not allowed to transfer to Beijing all on your own, and be working for a new employer unless your new employer goes through the red tape involved!
Believe it or not, all at your own expense!

Your work visa is employer-speicific, and thus, it restricts you to the place where your employer operates.

My second boss was the operator of a training centre in Shenzhen. After 15 months of working for him, I was posted to a province in the east.

It took the neighbourhood committee days to know about my presence.
And the police waited for me in a lane one evening, as I came home.
They escorted me home.
Then I was told that I was in breach of two rules:
- One, working outside of the city where my work visa was valid (Shenzhen);
- two, living in a flat without PSB approval!

The latter was a very interesting point.
The PSB take a personal interest in your safety and wellbeing.
I was told that if any mugger or burglar or worse caused me harm "CHina would lose face".

Of course, many expats, those backpackers especially, ignore rules, taking pot luck.
Well, I can safely say that while it may work out alright under some circumstances, it can easily backfire!
As hinted above, you are totally unprotected.
The police can raid your home at any time. I lived in Shenzhen for three years, and within 4 months in 1997, they came 4 times, usually close to midnight!
If I had had any "unregistered", especially female, visitors staying overnight I would have faced harsh music!

You cannot buy a work visa on your own - your employer must pay for your medical exam, and apply to the PSB for you.
That's the only way,
Roger

[MyTurnNow]

Roger is absolutely right. Please listen to him.

I don't know where you got the idea that the BJ police are "loose" in their regulation of foreigners. Nothing could be further from the truth. It must be the most uptight city in China! This is part of why I got out of Beijing...

Yes, there are a lot of foreigners living and working there on improper visas, outdated documentation, etc. This is not because the rules there are lax...it's more because the police there are overwhelmed and maybe sometimes because of connections of the Chinese owners/partners. All those people are living on luck and it could easily come crashing down around them...and the crash will be ugly.

I've heard the rumor that registration of foreigners is not required in BJ. The police I talked to there hadn't heard that one, however.

I absolutely cannot recommend that you *beep* around with the rules and documents here...and that goes double in Beijing. Do things right or don't do them at all....or be prepared to face the consequences.

MT

[JMD]

Well Roger, contrary to what you seem to believe, I can think.

However, I admit to not possessing all the information you have gathered through your years of experience and so I ask questions for my own education as well as for others who might find themselves in similar situations. Isn't that the purpose of this forum?

As I've said, I've gotten conflicting information and I'm trying to separate rumours from facts. And of course, this being China, I'm also trying to figure out where the grey areas lie. You don't have problems with grey areas do you Roger? Or are you going to report all those extra semi-illegal earnings you mentionned in your tread about the great month you've had? Congratulations by the way.

I'm quite aware of issues with the PSB as I've had my own run-ins with them. Once when my school and I neglected to report that I had moved to a new apartment about 500m from my old apartment... But that's Harbin. Which is different than Beijing and maybe even different from Shenzhen in 1997...

MT, thanks for your input as well as the concerns remarkably free of condescension. It seems we've gotten different perspectives. You ask why I think Beijing is less strict. Part of it is what I've seen or heard from friends there, as well as from more concrete sources.

For instance, did you know that by the end of the year foreign students studying in Beijing universities will be allowed to teach part-time according to a new policy from the Beijing Municipal Education Commission? (Beijing Weekend, March 14-16 2003, p. 2) One assumes this is simply an attempt to legitimize an already prevalent practice. As well, foreigners in Beijing already bring more than 200 million US Dollars to the city's economy every year. A little lee-way could go a big way... (China International Business, not sure of the exact issue, but I can check if anyone's interested)

I'm not trying to break any laws or cause any trouble, especially not to myself. Again, since my chances are slim to none of finding a position at a university before September and I'd prefer to not commit myself to an training centre, I'm trying to find out what my alternatives may be.

I'd still like to know more about the registration requirements in Beijing. MT, what kind of police officers did you talk to? Where they from the PSB? I've found that it can take some time for new (or even old) policies to trickle down... I know it's a fact that there are no longer any restrictions on where foreigners can live, but I still don't know how that relates to registration with the PSB.

I'm also still wondering about how being married will affect things if anyone has anything to contribute....

Thanks,

JM

[Roger]

The residency issue is very simple: By national law you are supposed to be registered. As a foreign national, you need special approval from the PSB for safety reasons.
Chinese too are still not free to just move to a different place. Twenty years ago, 99% could not leave their villages without permission from the village elder, and in towns from a neighbourhood committee!
Even these days, there still are neighbourhood watchdogs. In more modern places with private housing estates, there is a new trend that the old danwei system did not offer, that is, homes for rent. Many of these are not covered by law except by a regulation that requires such houses to be guarded by watchmen.
I just can't see how one can live anywhere in China without one's employer notifying the relevant authorities. Your address will be entered in your residence permit, anyway. In times of emergency, the police might have to locate you there and evacuate you!
Of course, grey areas exist, but I would not want to explore them in full.

Marriage does not solve any of your problems! You can get a marriage certificate, your wife can then apply for a passport more easily (it is a lot easier these days than only five years back) because the Chinese authorities assume you want to take her home with you.
They can't imagine you want to secure yourself permanent residency rights here! They certainly will not see eye to eye with you over this point!
Your visa expires - and you will have to get a new one. It is normal. Note that this unfair treatment applies more harshly to Chinese from the mainland married to Hong Kong natives! Many cannot move to their HK spouses' home for years, and their HK partners are a kind of "foreigner" in the mainland.

[JMD]

Thanks for the elaborations Roger, but I'm still confused.

"In more modern places with private housing estates, there is a new trend that the old danwei system did not offer, that is, homes for rent."

Huh? are you referring to homes rented to foreigners, Chinese or both? I've lived in three different rented apartments, most decidedly not in "private housing estates" and there's like 12 different "rental agencies" within my residential area. I can't say I've ever seen any watchmen either. In Beijing, there's massive amounts of places for rents and large amounts of paper and web advertisments for them, both in Chinese and English. Are you saying that's all technically illegal?

In terms of marriage, the "Senor" has brought up the possibility of a "D" visa in his tread so I'm going to look into that as well. But my wife certainly doesn't need me to get a passport. Having been in more than 10 countries, she's much more travelled than me!

JM

[/quote]

[MyTurnNow]

The police I talked to were definitely PSB but I don't know the exact postings. You are right in that sometimes it does take a while for things to get through to all levels. But here the reality of the law often resides in the opinions of the officer currently visiting your house... I've also had discussions on this topic with foreign liaisons and very long-term BJ foreign residents. I think we are often told that registration is unnecessary by Chinese staffers who just don't want to go to the trouble of helping you do it...and being in a police station.
It definitely doesn't hurt anything to be absolutely sure. Registering unnecessarily is much better than not registering and finding out the hard way that you needed to.

Marriage will not affect your residency here one bit. Very hard to get permanent residency here. You may be surprised to hear this in China, but...it's all usually done with money and connections.

You may not like his style, but I think Roger's advice has been very solid....

MT

[Roger]

If those apartments in Beijing you lived in were in huge estates, and twelve agents were available to choose a dwelling place from, who were the owners of those apartments?
Surely not a danwei.

And, they have no watchmen...? Well, so be it, but that's not the norm! And, quite frankly, I do prefer estates with certain security features even if that means management will charge me a bit more!

[JMD]

What's that (Churchill ) quote about people separated by a common language ?

I was going to write back that, much to my surprise, there must be considerable difference between housing in the Southeast and the Northeast. However, my confusion was greatly allayed by a fellow Canadian who's lived in England who's just told me that the word "estate" is used in British English in the same way that "apartment or housing complex" is used in North America...

Considering that for Canadians and Americans "estate" usually invokes a mansion or luxury housing units surrounded by greenery with maybe a fountain or two, I was rather awed by your bargaining abilities!

Looking back at what I wrote, it seems that we are basically on the same page. I believe you were surprised by my denial of living in private housing estates", while I fixated on "private housing estates".

Oh well, we all know that one of the best aspect of teaching English in China is learning about the language....

My most recent apartment is actually at least partially danwei owned, I believe, since all the other residents are employees of a local bank branch. Still can't say I've ever noticed a watchman anywhere though. (And that's all in Harbin, not in Beijing... yet)

[smarts]

JMD

perhaps it would be worth a visit to the Yong He Gong Police station in Beijing. There you can find out all the correct information about visa's and residency in Beijing.

You can get a type of "permanent" resident visa, if you are married to a Chinese national, however, the process to get it is lengthy and you have to meet certain ongoing requiments.......but certainly it is soething that can be done...and doesnt depend on being an "investor" in China.

I recently had to change my residency registration, and with a Z visa, it wasnt a problem for me. I just went to the local PSB in my neighborhood with my passport and residency book, and they then issued me with a new temporary 30 day residence paper, which i then took to the Yong He Gong Police station, where they updated my residency book. Process took 7 days in total and there was no fee charged for this process.

The reason I changed my residency was in fact because some old guy from the local street committee, insisted that I do that. If you are living in Chinese housing and in a neighborhood where there are basically no foreigners, then your biggest problem about residency may come from the local street committee that is "in charge" for the area you live in

I had tried to change my residency details before about 3 years ago, and at that time the first thing the PSB said to me was that had to pay a fine. I remember asking them how much it was , but they couldnt tell me. At that time, I basically didnt bother about it. These days, 3 years later, it seems to be that they are much more professional and is easier to do such things in Beijing. Dont know about other places though.

WTO is a wonderful thing!!!

[JMD]

Thanks for the advice smarts!

I'll probably follow your advice. I guess I have a blind spot when it come to the PSB, as they're... less then helpful in Harbin. Is the the Yong He Gong station a main station or is simply that you've found them more helpful?

Like MT said, it pretty much comes down to the individual officer, but I guess Beijing is, well, nicer to Foreigners.

However, the situation you describe is where you simply moved from one residence to another within Beijing, right?

Because of the advice and information I've gotten, My wife and I are still going to go to Beijing soon, but I'm going to find an employer to sponsor my resident permit. We'll live at a friend's place temporarily in the mean time.

Can anyone advise if that could be problem? Am I suposed to have some kind of temporary permission? My wife and I tried to ask some questions at the local PSB station, but got no help whatsoever.

[arioch36]

Some one said...the reason the school staff tells you it is legal to live anywhere is because they are lazy...on the mark. Because they are lazy, or because they don't want to know. I mean, how many times to i have to talk to my FAO just to get him to got to the PSB to get my Residence permit? Maybe ten times. And to me the residence permit is more or just as important as the z-visa
The truth is the real estate agents will lie right to your face when they rent you the apartment. I had a foreign friend go through this. he rented an apartment, and was later told things like "try not to be seen on Thursday afternoons" Why? Because unknown to him, it was illegal to live there. I have heard that Beijing schools hate to go to the trouble of getting your residence permit, especially language schools, because they are mostly hiring you illegally anyways. So I have heard.
Technically you are supposed to register, though I stay weekends with a Chinese friend in Beijing. I think your real problem, if you want to be legal, etc. is to find an employer who will hire you legally, and thus be able to get you your residence permit. That being said, and as much as I believe in being legal, MOST foerign teachers working illegally in China have no problems.
Good luck

[Roger]

Yes, your Harbin work visa can cause you some hassles, and a local employer cannot just get the other permits without obtaining for you your work visa in the first place!

[JMD]

Um, Could you please elaborate Roger?

I didn't think it was very difficult to transfer from one employer to another. (No more than anything else in China at any rate.) The only problem I've heard of is if the previous employer refuses to provide a release letter stating that both parties have terminated their contract with no outstanding issues. That's not a problem for me, since I have a very amicable relationship with my former employer.

arioch36, thanks for your comments, but I'm a little confused by your statement: "And to me the residence permit is more or just as important as the z-visa." Unless you know something that I don't , I was under the impression the Z-visa is just a temporary document to get into China and then get your resident permit which allows you to stay in China. How could you not feel that it was more important? Am I missing something?

[arioch36]

well, I am still here, confusing as usuall. As you said, the z-visa allows you to come to China. The green residence permit allows you to stay in China, and is specific to where you live. I guess i would say one without the other is useless. But your z-visa doesn't get you your residence permit.

Technically your z-visa is employer specific, But I never heard of needing to change that, just change the residence permit. Smarts said he did it . I have always had an employer do it, never heard of people doing it themselves, but who knows. but only legal employers will do it

I do not personally live in Beijing, only to visit ,there are expat sites, but I have been told the PSB checks up on these things more then other cities. Also, the colder the city, the more uptight the government???