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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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 Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:35 am Post subject: Let's talk salary... or not |
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No, this isn't a survey for a class project. There's been ongoing discussion about salary disclosure on one of the other forums---a topic that's relevant for just about every EFL teacher regardless of where in the world we teach or expect to teach.
Some questions to ponder:- When recruiters and employers don't indicate the salary for open positions, how do you determine what you're worth?
- What are you thoughts about job ads that don't show the salary or at least a salary range?
- For employers you're interested in working for, do you ask those already teaching there how much they earn? Do you feel they're obligated to disclose their salary?
- Do you simply figure out what you feel you're worth and try to negotiate for that amount? How successful are you when negotiating?
- How do/would you feel if you found out your colleagues were making more than you? Less than you?
- Do you disclose your salary to others? If not, why?
- If you're an employer or hiring manager, do your advertised positions include a salary amount? If not, why?
Comments? Ramblings? Words of wisdom? |
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water rat
Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1098
Location: North Antarctica
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Let's talk salary... or not |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
No, this isn't a survey for a class project. There's been ongoing discussion about salary disclosure on one of the other forums---a topic that's relevant for just about every EFL teacher regardless of where in the world we teach or expect to teach.
Some questions to ponder:- When recruiters and employers don't indicate the salary for open positions, how do you determine what you're worth?
- What are you thoughts about job ads that don't show the salary or at least a salary range?
- For employers you're interested in working for, do you ask those already teaching there how much they earn? Do you feel they're obligated to disclose their salary?
- Do you simply figure out what you feel you're worth and try to negotiate for that amount? How successful are you when negotiating?
- How do/would you feel if you found out your colleagues were making more than you? Less than you?
- Do you disclose your salary to others? If not, why?
- If you're an employer or hiring manager, do your advertised positions include a salary amount? If not, why?
Comments? Ramblings? Words of wisdom? |
Indonesia, among others, is notorious for undisclosed, undiscussed salaries. You are told when hired and your salary has been negotiated, that you are never to discuss it with other teachers. It even may say so in the contract. It doesn't matter if you become good friends; you are not supposed to ever discuss it with another teacher ever. It takes quite a few drinks and loads of trust to pry it out, if you have a mind too. Often it is not wise to have a mind to because one or the other of you will only resent the knowledge. I once told a boss (a right, regular poopheel, he was) that this whole system is just wrong. His only defense was that everyone does it , and that it was the "professional" way. I said it was still wrong. We went on like that for a minute or two, or five before I signed the contract. A month or two later he fired me on trumped up charges.
As for job ads that don't say one damned thing about salary, or offer some BS about 'generous remuneration, I do not even apply! Already with the red flags, and the waving and the flavin. oh boy! Next they tell you what a rewarding experience it is for the individual willing to dedicate his time. el frikkn' el oh frikkin' el! |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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In my experience over the past decade and a half, in Central/Western Europe job adverts will post a salary range and a list of required/desired qualifications and experience. You can fairly easily calculate what you should expect - and negotiate based on that.
This seems professional and fair to me.
Of course, it doesn't work so well if basically 'no qualifications' are required, and it would be awkward to put something like 'high end of pay range for blonde/blue.'
As with most other aspects of EFL, quite a lot depends on region where you want to teach. |
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esl_prof
Joined: 30 Nov 2013
Posts: 2006
Location: peyi kote solèy frèt
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| My job hunting experience over the past five to six years (since re-entering the ESL profession after a ten-year hiatus) has been limited to public community and technical colleges here in the U.S. My experience in Flyover State has been that salary ranges are always published in the job ads and, when offered a full-time position, there's not really any room for negotiation. You're just placed on the salary schedule based on your degrees (BA, MA, or EdD/PhD) and years of previous full-time experience and offered that amount. For part-time positions, which make up the vast majority of positions available at community/technical colleges, the pay rate is usually published as $/credit hour or $/hour depending on whether or not you'd be teaching for-credit or non-credit courses. I imagine that the process is the same for IEPs at public colleges and universities. IEP's at private colleges/universities could be a different ballgame. |
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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| esl_prof wrote: |
| I imagine that the process is the same for IEPs at public colleges and universities. IEP's at private colleges/universities could be a different ballgame. |
My experience with ads at public and private universities in the US is that, usually, they don't publish the salary. They typically state "Salary commensurate with qualifications and experience" or something similar. |
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esl_prof
Joined: 30 Nov 2013
Posts: 2006
Location: peyi kote solèy frèt
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| rtm wrote: |
| My experience with ads at public and private universities in the US is that, usually, they don't publish the salary. They typically state "Salary commensurate with qualifications and experience" or something similar. |
I've seen a few of those here and there, and I'm not surprised that that's the case with private colleges and universities. As for public institutions, my guess is that this varies from state to state and is largely consistent within any given state that one might be looking at ads for. |
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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| No salary stated = no application from my point of view. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| water rat wrote: |
| Indonesia, among others, is notorious for undisclosed, undiscussed salaries. You are told when hired and your salary has been negotiated, that you are never to discuss it with other teachers. It even may say so in the contract. It doesn't matter if you become good friends; you are not supposed to ever discuss it with another teacher ever. It takes quite a few drinks and loads of trust to pry it out, if you have a mind too. Often it is not wise to have a mind to because one or the other of you will only resent the knowledge. I once told a boss (a right, regular poopheel, he was) that this whole system is just wrong. His only defense was that everyone does it , and that it was the "professional" way. |
This is a common situation for some employers worldwide and in other fields/industries. As you mentioned, the rationale for requiring employees not to discuss their salaries with each other is that it keeps peace in the workplace---supposedly avoiding conflict, resentment, and classcism. It's a catch-22: Some people want to know what their colleagues earn in order to gauge their own value---to ascertain if they're receiving fair compensation. Others, however, are in the mindset that salary is a personal issue; it's no one's business what they earn. That too can cause dissention for those who suspect they're below the mark and need others' salary info in order to boost their own bargaining power for more money.
I've never been asked by my teaching colleagues about my salary nor do I bring it up. Frankly, I'm one of those who believes salary is a personal matter, especially if it's calculated based on certain criteria (i.e., it can vary based on the individual's qualifications/background). If asked by a colleague, I would be vague in my answer by giving a range that all employees likely fall within. If pressed, I would say I don't disclose personal info, but I'm sure others would be happy to do so. 
In the Middle East, it's assumed that non-native speakers will earn less than their native-speaking peers. I would think that's the same situation in other countries. There's also a cultural factor involved. For example, in mainstream American culture, it's generally impolite to ask others about their salary, whether you work for the same employer or not. However, for other cultures (within the US or abroad), I suspect it's common or even expected to discuss earnings, especially among men. And since many of us work in multicultural environments... |
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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| The problem with 'hidden' salaries is that the system lends itself to discrimination on the grounds of age, gender, race, disability etc. I'm a fan of the salary for the job system. |
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water rat
Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1098
Location: North Antarctica
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| MuscatGary wrote: |
| The problem with 'hidden' salaries is that the system lends itself to discrimination on the grounds of age, gender, race, disability etc. I'm a fan of the salary for the job system. |
In Indonesia, and maybe elsewhere, it's more of a matter of the headman or woman keeping the part of your rightful salary that they negotiated away from you. |
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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| water rat wrote: |
| MuscatGary wrote: |
| The problem with 'hidden' salaries is that the system lends itself to discrimination on the grounds of age, gender, race, disability etc. I'm a fan of the salary for the job system. |
In Indonesia, and maybe elsewhere, it's more of a matter of the headman or woman keeping the part of your rightful salary that they negotiated away from you. |
That too.... |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| MuscatGary wrote: |
| water rat wrote: |
| MuscatGary wrote: |
| The problem with 'hidden' salaries is that the system lends itself to discrimination on the grounds of age, gender, race, disability etc. I'm a fan of the salary for the job system. |
In Indonesia, and maybe elsewhere, it's more of a matter of the headman or woman keeping the part of your rightful salary that they negotiated away from you. |
That too.... |
Having worked in the USA in another career field (non-ESL teaching), I worked for both union and non-union companies.
The union positions always have a fixed hourly wage, same for everybody. No need to wonder what everybody else gets paid, it is posted for all to see. Clear & simple. What could go wrong, right? 
Non-union jobs mostly had an unpublished rate, and this led to many issues. Most common was when I found out that the guy who has been at the company for 2 years, and with a higher rank/position actually makes less than I do, even though I was just hired. I learned quickly to understate my wage to co-workers. Let's say my salary was $250 day, I would say I was only making $180 per day. Why? So the other guys wouldn't call the office and complain, it could make things rough on the job site. My saying I was being paid a much lower salary, it didn't hurt my job or the guys around me, they might have said I needed to ask for a raise soon... but they didn't call the office, complain and rock the boat. Also, a lot of guys would job-hop. Since a company would hire somebody with a higher wage, esp. during boom-times, it was easier to often just go to work for another outfit then to get a pay-raise from the office that could match the salary offered as a new employee at another company.
Of course, in the union jobs, the problem was that some folks just weren't very good at their jobs, or even pulling their own weight. When you have to do your job, plus pick up the slack from someone else, and they get paid the exact same wage as you do, it creates some friction, esp. when I am doing half of your job plus mine!
Water-cooler talk, scuttlebutt, gossip etc is always going to happen. Best to have a pay scale, with salary range based on exp. & quals. Bonuses based on performance, if so inclined. TYPE or PASTE your text here... |
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nightsintodreams
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I think it should be a requirement to at least mention the salary range on a job advert.
When I've looked for jobs in the past, if the salary isn't mentioned then I assume it's bad and move onto the next job listing. |
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water rat
Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1098
Location: North Antarctica
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| nightsintodreams wrote: |
Personally, I think it should be a requirement to at least mention the salary range on a job advert.
When I've looked for jobs in the past, if the salary isn't mentioned then I assume it's bad and move onto the next job listing. |
Yes, I and others have said the same above. Perhaps we should start a petition and tell our good patron Dave (He of the ESL Cafe) that we the undersigned will not respond to any ads in the jobs sections that do not specifically state the salary range and perks, and that Dave's Cafe should then accept no such ads as well. That would be a start. It's not like we can lobby congress or parliament or what have you in our home countries and expect any help. I am serious. |
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Voyeur
Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 431
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| I'd prefer to live in a world where salaries are disclosed; I don't find money to be such a big deal or such a personal topic. That being said, just this year I got in trouble for talking about salaries at the job. I've gotten in trouble for this before. I've decided to grow up and accept the world on its terms on this one: from now on I don't mention salary ever. I know that salary info. will get around, but it won't be for me. When people ask, I basically explain that I'd like to be free with such info., but have gotten in trouble before. |
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