Job Discussion Forums

joe_doufu · Joined: 26 Jun 2004 Posts: 25 Location: Korea

I hate this sentence: "Send CV with expected salary to...". This is my first time to look for ESL work in Hong Kong. I have experience and am confident that I can find work, but I'm just wondering, what is the going rate here? Say, for kindergarten work? How much should I ask for?

Ludwig · Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:03 am Post subject:

Stating your expected salary is quite normal in HK and is a feature typical of application forms even for university positions.

It would help if you gave some indication as to your qualifications and experience (which, invariably, must be post-qualification).

If it helps, I know of a job currently being offered at a kindergarten which pays $17,000 for Monday through Friday, 8am to 4pm (though I have no idea how representative this figure is) with (dim sum) meals provided at the school.

Freddie_Unbelievable · Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 288

Joe said:

Ludwig · Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:08 am Post subject:

'Joe_doufu', obviously you are free to believe who you want. I can tell you that, as you are seeking work at a kindergarten, you will need to get used rather rapidly to the sentence 'please send a detailed CV and expected salary to...'

At least 90% of such posts advertised at the following HK job website contain it:

http://www.classifiedpost.com/

Hardly "deceptive".

Horizontal Hero · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:24 am Post subject:

To me this is an infuriating request which only measns one thing - they are looking to pay sh.t and are only too willing to hire it is if is cheap enough. I rarely ever apply for such jobs as I find the process demeaning and akin to begging. One HK company that was going to hire me actually played me off against another applicant. They interviewed us together, and after the interview kept ringing me, each time lowering the pay offer, and reducing the "perks" like medical insurance etc. They made it clear they were alo calling the other guy at the same time. I eventually said I'm not going lower than "$X", and guess what - I never heard from them again. Also, I have never ever heard back from any comopany where I have had to statt my salary in the job application. NEVER. The rerason is that I ask for a reasonable salary, and companies that ask this question are not willing to pay a reasonable salary. It is well knowm that in negotiation, the party that gives the first offer is the loser, as the figure will only go down from there.

OK, forgive my skepticism. A practical tip. State a figure that you think is reasonable, and then say that you are willing to negotiate because you are truly keen on the position. If they call you, you are in a reasonable position of power at that point.

Freddie_Unbelievable · Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 288

My feeling exactly HH. I would not even finish reading the ad (which is usually the small box at the back of the paper.)

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

I have to second Ludwig. In mytime in Hong Kong, the majority of job adverts in the SCMP had a phrase to the effect of "state your expected salary...and send your CV..."
Which means you are giving away your idea of how they should renumerate you, and they can pick the most humble person.

A special feature of HK was that most advertisers would never bother to even acknowledtge receipt of your mail or fax.

joe_doufu · Joined: 26 Jun 2004 Posts: 25 Location: Korea

Thank you guys for five totally useless posts!
I wasn't asking your opinion of the sentence, of course it is normal for companies to want to know your expectations. I was asking, "How much is normal for an English teacher to make in HK?" So I can tell them my expectation. Only one of you even mentioned a number.

Freddie_Unbelievable · Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 288

Now joe, do not bite the hand that feeds you.

For me the minimum would be about $30,000. If you do not have a PGCE then $15,000 would be ok.

joe_doufu · Joined: 26 Jun 2004 Posts: 25 Location: Korea

Thanks. I don't have a certificate, just one year of kindergarten experience in Taiwan. It seems like $15-$17000 is the going rate for full-time kindergartens.

Ludwig · Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:19 am Post subject: Re: thanks for nothin

Nicola H · Joined: 07 Apr 2004 Posts: 11

Joe,

As Ludwig mentioned you're not a 'real' English teacher, but you're not looking for a position in a government or International school so your lack of a PGCE shouldn't matter. This is Hong Kong, and many kindergartens employ people purely on the basis that English is their first language.

If you come with an open mind and don't expect fantastic working conditions or great benefits, i'm sure that you would find a job fairly easily, especially as it's coming up to September. I think that having had experience in Taiwan will be seen as an advantage by some employers.

$15,000 to $17,000 seems about right for kindergarten. It's not great, but you can get a shared flat for around $3,000 and as long as you don't mind not saving, you can have a lot of fun in HK.

Good Luck

ryuro · Joined: 22 Apr 2003 Posts: 91

Geez Luwig,

Who gave you a wedgie this morning?!

The guy had a legitimate question and pointed-out, rightly so, that nobody had really addressed his question.

And as to what constitutes a �real� teacher (of any type), well� I�ve known a lot of �real� teachers in my career around international schools, (and by �real� I�m assuming you�re referring to someone with an actual teaching degree or certificate from their home country) who were absolute crap! I�ve also known many �unreal� (if you want to call them that) teachers, without the bit �o paper, but with just as much- if not more- experience than many �real� teachers who were fantastic. In fact, I tend to think that a teacher with experience and no degree is usually better than a fresh-faced, newly minted Dip. Ed-er right outta Uni/College.

That�s not to say the opposite isn�t true too, but having a teaching degree, IMO, doesn�t necessarily make one a �real� teacher. I don�t mean to insult my fellow �real� teachers out there because obviously a lot of work and study go into acquiring a teaching degree, but like everything in life you only get out of it what you want.

Of course, the reality is that having the degree is generally necessary in Hong Kong and most international schools; and often EFL/ESL teachers (particularly in Asia) who lack the degree do occasionally come across as somewhat indignant at times when they�re told it�s necessary to make good money, but I think you were a little harsh on Joe.

In short, �who are you to decree who is and is not a real teacher�?

Maybe you should unknot your knickers and chill out a bit.

ryuro

kowlooner · Joined: 24 Jun 2004 Posts: 230 Location: HK, BCC (former)

Joe,

$15k as a starter salary would be a reasonable, perhaps even slightly high, expectation depending on what your actual teaching responsibilities are. If you were to be offered $17-$18k that would be quite good, and anything above $20k absolutely wonderful. Pay would be higher in the ESF schools or NET program, but in the latter you might find the working environment not terribly enjoyable, and in any case those options are probably (but not necessarily) out for you given your apparent lack of official credentials.

I agree with Ryuro on the issue of teaching qualifications not necessarily being a good indicator of potential performance. However, if you have not had any training, it might not be a bad idea to at least take a short course, or at the very least read up on the issue to get an understanding of the curriculum and lesson planning process as well as basic presentation and interaction techniques. Though you may be hired based simply on your native English ability, you may be able to negotiate for a better starting package if you can prove that you are serious about developing yourself in the profession. And of course it will make it easier for you once you're in the classroom.

Generally I would say pay no attention to "Freddy" as he is the one who previously wrote that the good thing about HK was the money and the bad the Chinese. That's an indication of someone who simply enjoys trying to rile others up and thus with a tendency to exaggerate. This time he's kept rather civil and the second figure he cited is roughly accurate.

As for the salary request in the advert, that is of course very normal in HK. Believe it or not, those requesting an expected salary figure are not all trying to get just the cheapest meat. They are, however, trying to weed out both those with unrealistic marketplace expectations and those desperate souls who are willing to work for anything. Provide a reasonable salary expectation, perhaps even slightly on the high side, and indicate you are willing to negoatiate depending on the nature of the job. You may even wish to include an explanation of that salary figure, specifying what you would be doing to make you worthy of earning it.

Best of luck!

AndyinHK · Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Posts: 98

Not to disuade you Joe, but assuming your a guy, it's pretty tough to get a job in a Kindergarten here. They tend to want women. Although I got offered a Kindergarten job a couple of years ago. They offered something like 3 hours in the mornings everyday for $7,000 HKD a month. It's not impossible, but all I'm saying is to expect at least a few doors to be shut on your face. (I didn't take the job.)

The other thing is, you'll need a visa. I didn't. Sometimes that comes into play as well. In the example, above, the job was part-time so you couldn't have applied for a visa. Only with full-time employment the company or school can sponsor you.