Job Discussion Forums

Steve Smith · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 26

Hi there all.

This is my first post here. My name is Steve Smith, and I first went to Poland in 1996, spent 2 years there, married Malgorzata who was one of my "guinea-pig" students on my TEFL Cert course at University of Central Lancs, now have a son, Cezary.

So, boys, before you go to Poland - THINK HARD!

I have used "Target" as my subject title because this is where I had my first taste of EFL in Poland. I was sad to see several negative comments about the company on here. I feel that this may be because they recruit a lot of teachers new to the profession, plenty straight from university, and just being in Poland can be a huge culture shock for such people. In fact, getting out of bed early and working for a living can be an equally big shock for a lot of fresh graduates, so they'd complain wherever they went!

There is also an inevitable clash between naturally left-ish new graduates and the corporate world. I feel this is a contributing factor.

I had fun at Target, and they gave me situations which really helped me to develop my teaching and myself personally. I taught companies such as Wella, Netia and Polkomtel in Warsaw. There were plenty of 7.30 starts, then nothing until 4pm, but that's the nature of business teaching.

I later got shipped out to a place called Lezajsk in SE Poland to teach at the newly-acquired Phillip Morris ciggy factory - all but 3 were zero beginners, and only one person in the town spoke English above pre-intermediate. So I learnt Polish!!

Finally, I want to pass on my heartfelt condolances to those at Target for the passing away of the former director, Nick Pawlak, a true character who you just couldn't help liking. God bless you, Nick.

Alex Shulgin · Joined: 20 Jul 2003 Posts: 553

Alternatively the reason that lots of teachers hated working at Target was that Target broke Polish law (just as it still does) and lied to teachers (especially about the salary they pay, which is still pathetic).

CROGO · Joined: 15 Mar 2004 Posts: 46 Location: Krakow

"So I learnt Polish!!"

Well I hope you "learnt" Polish better than you "learnt" English. That quote speaks volumes about the kind of teachers Target must hire.

Steve Smith · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 26

Hello there, "CROGO",

I was disappointed to see that you felt it necessary to post an insult on a public board like that. Do you really think that my level of English is that low?

Perhaps you wish you spoke Polish as I do, and this insult is a manifestation of your jealousy.

For your information, I have a BA (Hons) in English from Durham University, and I do NOT take kindly to being insulted about my language.

Generally speaking, internet fora are written informally, allowing contributors a certain licence to veer from the constraints of grammar.

In any case, I will not allow this to dissuade me from enjoying this forum and using it in a positive manner.

Please feel free to send me a personal message if you would like to discuss this further, CROGO, but please at least respect the spirit of Dave's forum and keep insults off the board.

CROGO · Joined: 15 Mar 2004 Posts: 46 Location: Krakow

Simply amazing! I simply quote from this guy's own posting and he considers his own words are an insult to him!

"I was disappointed to see that you felt it necessary to post an insult on a public board like that. Do you really think that my level of English is that low?"

We tend to judge people by the words and language they use. In the U.S., only a backwoods redneck would use "learnt" as a verb or say "I learnt...". The choice of words was yours, and not mine. If your own language insults you, I suggest you do something about it yourself and not waste storage space on Dave's server.

"Perhaps you wish you spoke Polish as I do, and this insult is a manifestation of your jealousy."

I have enough friends and family to speak Polish with when I want, but what does that have to do with your lack of command of the English language? What does speaking Polish have to do with English grammar? One is an apple and the other is an orange. I am secure enough in who I am that I don't need to bore everyone here with my travels or other foreign language skills. Why would I be jealous of someone who is so obviously insecure and thin-skinned?

"For your information, I have a BA (Hons) in English from Durham University, and I do NOT take kindly to being insulted about my language."

First of all, the language that you find insulting was your own, not mine. What Durham University did you graduate from? Is Durham University a mail order diploma mill in North Carolina? If you wrote, "I are a university graduate," would you expect that your diploma and degree in English would impress anyone? Real English teachers are entrusted to protect the language from corruptions such as "I learnt Polish."

"Generally speaking, internet fora are written informally, allowing contributors a certain licence [sic] to veer from the constraints of grammar."

Really, then why are you so sensitive about your own grammar here? When a contributor announces to all the world that he holds a degree (with honors, none-the-less) from a university in English, and that he teaches English to foreigners with no exposure to the English tongue, we expect more from him than a drunk posting from a trailer park hunting and pecking at a computer keyboard with two fingers. When an ?informal forum? also has a feature to edit your posting and you choose not to use it, and instead offer excuses for that which an English professor would correct a student, well that makes a statement as well.

"In any case, I will not allow this to dissuade me from enjoying this forum and using it in a positive manner."

Oh, please do. When you post glowing praise for a language school that knowledgeable people here state breaks the laws and lies and cheats its teaching staff, are you using this forum ?in a positive manner?? What credibility do you have about teaching English when you mangle the language in your posting, and then arrogantly brag about your alleged degree in English, and your ability to speak Polish when your error in basic grammar is addressed? A reasonable person might very well conclude that your alleged degree is a sham and that you were sent here to shill for the Target school. But do you really think your posting here was positive, or is it indicative of a severely insecure individual who needs to see a shrink?

"Please feel free to send me a personal message if you would like to discuss this further, CROGO, but please at least respect the spirit of Dave's forum and keep insults off the board."

Again, if you find your own misuse of the language has insulted yourself, that is your problem. Since you obviously require some guidance, and the spirit of this board is to help those interested in teaching English as a second language, it is within the spirit of the forum to correct someone who has an ignorance or disregard for basic grammar. And why should I send you a personal message when you chose to further embarrass yourself on the forum?

Frater · Joined: 17 Apr 2003 Posts: 42

Unfortunately, CROGO, the joke's on you.

'Learnt' is perfectly acceptable.

CROGO wrote:
'Really, then why are you so sensitive about your own grammar here? When a contributor announces to all the world that he holds a degree (with honors, non-the-less)'

I'm not so sure about 'non-the-less', though.

Seems a bit semi-literate.

'Frater'[/quote]

Karla · Joined: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 15

"Real English teachers are entrusted to protect the language," says CROGO

hahaha!!

So must be the real-deal, pukka, (semi-literate) English-teaching Knight in mother******* shining armour, huh CROGO??

What a twit!!

Go protect the language someplace else, CROGO!

CROGO · Joined: 15 Mar 2004 Posts: 46 Location: Krakow

Frater, old boy, I believe you misquoted me. But really now, if you used "learnt" as the past tense of "learn", in the U.S. you would be considered a backwoods redneck. Go watch "Deliverance" if you still don't understand what a backwoods redneck is.

Sorry, I never claimed to be the knight is shining armor out to protect the English language, but I did have English teachers who were kind enough to point out such things when I was in school, and they took their jobs seriously. (I was also taught not to use bad language when making a point.) I can recognize a professional, but there are some shills posting on this forum out to mislead people.

Chris · Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:57 pm Post subject:

Many British and American verbs have different past simple and past participle forms. Learn, got, spell, etc are just a few of them.

I'm American, but having lived in Europe (6 1/2 years in Poland and 1/2 year in Germany), I have learnt many of the differences and don't consider one to be superior over the other.

This is from dictionary.com--I just typed 'learnt' into the search area:

learn ( P ) Pronunciation Key (l�rn)
v. learned, also learnt (l�rnt) learn�ing, learns
v. tr.
To gain knowledge, comprehension, or mastery of through experience or study.
To fix in the mind or memory; memorize: learned the speech in a few hours.

To acquire experience of or an ability or a skill in: learn tolerance; learned how to whistle.
To become aware: learned that it was best not to argue.
To become informed of; find out. See Synonyms at discover.
Nonstandard. To cause to acquire knowledge; teach.
Obsolete. To give information to.

learnt ( P ) Pronunciation Key (l�rnt)
v.
A past tense and a past participle of learn.

[/b]

Kymro · Joined: 19 Oct 2003 Posts: 244

Steve Smith · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 26

Well, I wasn't quite expecting all of that!!!

Anyway, I still stand by my belief that Target offers an interesting experience. Obviously I don't condone any procedures which may not be complicit with local laws, though I feel that out in the big wide world commercial entities have to do whatever it takes to survive. I'm sure they're not the only ones...

Are there any other ex-Target people out there? What do you think of them?

CROGO · Joined: 15 Mar 2004 Posts: 46 Location: Krakow

"This learnt/learned business from Crogo is possibly the most ignorant and arrogant (and wrong) correction I've ever read.
'Learnt' is how its spelt in England the country from which English derives, (did they teach you that in the States Crogo)."

Sorry, but the issue is not spelling, but grammar. "Learnt" is a correct spelling but "I learnt" is bad grammar! According to Shakespeare's usage, "learnt" is only properly used as a past-participle (as Chris correctly used it in a sentence), not simple past tense. (We do read Shakespeare here in school, and I have performed his work as well!) So you want to take issue with Oxford and Shakespeare?

"The 1914 Oxford edition of the Complete Works of William Shakespeare, Edited by W. J. Craig, ranks among the most authoritative published this century. The 37 plays, 154 sonnets and miscellaneous verse constitute the literary cornerstone of Western civilization."
http://yahooligans.yahoo.com/reference/shakespeare/

An online search for "learned" in this online complete works of Shakespeare site yields 58 results. Conversely, the search for "learnt" yields exactly two results, both of which such instances are in the past-participle, i.e., "Marry, thus much I have learnt," (Love's Labour's Lost, Act II, Scene I, line 88) and, "he hath learnt so much fence already." (The Second Part of King Henry the Sixth, Act II, Scene III, line 67.) Even when Shakespeare needed to chop off a syllable from "learned" to fit his prose, he took license with "learn'd" and not "learnt". The search for "learn'd" yields 45 results in Shakespeare's works. So if "learnt" was correct grammar in the simple past tense, why would Shakespeare have needed to pen "learn'd" in his works? Why did Oxford publish it this way? The obvious conclusion is that while "I have learnt" was correct, "I learnt" was undeniably bad grammar. I have read various other British authors and have yet to see an instance where "I learnt" is used, unless it is in a dialogue between the uneducated. J.R.R. Tolkien, a master of the English Language and its entomology, and co-author of the Oxford dictionary, used "learned" not "learnt" in his works.

While someone saying "I learnt" may be understood, particularly in the U.S., the speaker would be considered uneducated. (I would suspect that in Britain "I learnt" is perhaps more commonly heard in Ireland and Scotland, than in England proper. . .) I have yet to read or hear the Queen or a member of the Royal family use "I learnt". Therefore, I stand by my statement that, "I learnt" is bad grammar, and is not "the Queen's English". I challenge anyone who disagrees to produce examples of "I learnt" to support your argument. Is childish name-calling and use of bad language the best you can do?

Furthermore, if you are a professional teaching English as a second language, I believe you owe a duty to your students to teach them English in a manner that they will be respected throughout the English speaking world rather than just teaching them your own particular accent of English. If you teach your students to speak in a manner that would cause other English speakers to form a negative opinion of their language skills, have you done your job?

To conclude, "I learnt" weren't correct! (Ha ha! My own license here;)

Alex Shulgin · Joined: 20 Jul 2003 Posts: 553

Steve Smith · Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 26

Interesting. When I was there 96-97, I was paid �500 (Pounds) monthly, and this was without doubt one of the best deals at the time. I suppose things must have changed.

However, I certainly earnt the money (is "earnt" OK with you, Crogo, or would you like to scour the works of Shakespeare to locate references? What a prat!) as I had a full timetable with plenty of travel time to classes.

In conclusion, I still say that I enjoyed the experience and found that it really developed me as a person and as a teacher, and I was grateful to the support shown by people like Nick Pawlak and Mike Gardom. It was a LOT more fun than Oxford Study Centre in Radom, where I had the misfortune of being Asst. DOS 98-99 with Grant K., and the crazed owner Jolanta G.

Alex Shulgin · Joined: 20 Jul 2003 Posts: 553

�500 a month was one of the best deals going?! Looks like the Target brainwashing has another victim. In 1997 �500 was about 3,000PLN. Even English First (widely known as one of the worst paying schools in the universe) was paying 3,800PLN ($1,000). Personally I was working far fewer hours than teachers at Target and EF (I was doing 18 hours a week, they were doing 24) and making 4,500PLN a month AFTER tax (something which neither EF not Target bothered with).

BTW I've never met anybody who has a good word to say about Jolanta G. Even people who are usually very kind about other people have bad things to say about her. But Grant K is another matter altogether. I know the bloke a bit and he's always seemed like a pretty nice guy. Perhaps too professional for his own good but still nice enough. If you judge him by the quality of his enemies then he's a great guy!