Job Discussion Forums

homersimpson · Joined: 14 Feb 2003 Posts: 569 Location: Kagoshima

A lot of people have written about their negative expriences in Japan. One thing I would suggest to anyone considering coming to Japan, if you are overly-sensitive, don't like being the center of attention, and/or can't handle moments of isolation, loneliness, and downright confusion, a foreign country, escecially one in Asia, is NOT for you. You need to have a thick skin. People will point at you, kids will giggle when they say "Hello" to you (and probably run away when you reply), you will experience racism (albeit mostly subtle), you will have problems communicating (even if you've studied Japanese for years; there are nuances in the language -like any other- that will be difficult or impossible to grasp. Odds are you will not find dozens of other foreigners (you'd actually want) to hang out with. This is not a Western country. Things will not be like they are "back home." That doesn't make them bad, just different. You will NOT change Japan or its culture. If you want to have a rewarding experience, YOU must adapt. That doesn't mean you have to alter your personality forever, but don't bring your pre-conceived notions to Japan. You will be miserable. You will hate your job and probably end up b*tching and complaining on sites like this.

Sunpower · Joined: 22 Jan 2003 Posts: 256 Location: Taipei, TAIWAN

Yup, you gotta have thick skin over here. What's wrong with a little bitching?

And all the Chinese and Japanese just think I'm American.

Shoot, all of them think anyone who's White must be American!

Tonester · Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:19 am Post subject:

Yeah, I always get asked if this or that is different in America or they say "Which part of America are you from?" even though I'm an Aussie. Whenever either question is asked I always tell them that I'm from Australia and they in turn apologise profusely and turn red with embarassment (so they bl**dy should- assumptions are dangerous) However I don't get angry because it's a common occurance.

Just for fun though: Maybe you could be sarcastic by then asking them what part of China or Korea are they from and then watch their reaction. Laughing

On that note, as an active contributor to the genkienglish forum this topic was also discussed. Look at the discussion there to at least get a few laughs. The site is:

http://www.genkienglish.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=228&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

foster · Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 485 Location: Honkers, SARS

ASSUME = a$$ out of U and ME (which I am sure we all know)

Yeah, after being asked if I was American (Nope, Canuck) and then being lambasted for being 30(at the time) and not married, I retaliated with "Are you Korean?". Shut them up fast. Tit for tat I say!

Tonester · Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:05 am Post subject:

I am 22 but yet I get asked whether I am married or have a girlfriend. When I say no, they ask "Why?" and I say "How old do you think I am?" They say "28 (sometimes 30)" and when I tell them my age they then proceed to say "You're lying, aren't you? You're not 22 right?" and when I show my gaijin card to shut them up they believe me. Then I say "It's too early for me to hang up my boots yet, mate"

I'm also used to that...... Yes, you do need a thick skin here!

chi-chi · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 127 Location: Back in Asia!

And anyone who is not blonde or blue eyed is NOT American...it kind of reminds me of Korea, except with more legal protections...which is good, because in my Personal experience, there are just as many bad schools.
It is kind of funny, because reading on this site, it sounded like Japan used to be like Korea but had changed a lot or something? Apparently not?

Canuck2112 · Joined: 13 Jun 2003 Posts: 239

Excellent post. In my opinion, however, the wierdest part of Japan is often the other foreigners here rather than the culture.

Shaman · Joined: 06 Apr 2003 Posts: 446 Location: Hammertown

Celeste · Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:21 pm Post subject:

I have been very lucky in Japan, I suppose. I have not experienced racism or any form of pressure to conform. Then again, I lived in a very conservative region of Korea for 2 years and I find Japan to be a refreshingly open kind of place (Korea-light) in comparison. I have to say, though, I am married. I am very 'housewifey' (ie Ido grocery shopping on my lunch hour, bake cookies for people at the office, call my husband to let him know if we have an office party and I will be home late, etc.) Most people I encounter on a daily basis find this to be very cute. The children screaming hello and running away thing is something I haven't experienced since my Korea days. I do live in a big city though. I live in a big city on purpose. I know about small towns. I grew up in small towns. I knew that I didn't want to put myself under that kind of scrutiny in Japan.

Tonester · Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:39 pm Post subject:

That all depends on whether you hang out with other foreigners all the time or whether you immerse yourself having only Japanese friends and staying away from fellow foreigners. I've so far met only one loser who was a fellow foreigner whom I saw as a womaniser but the rest I know seem to have their head about them and have good reasons for being here. JET does have its share of losers (I'm speaking as a JET) but then again eikaiwa has in my opinion more good than bad people (based on the people I've met-ESID though). I have a good balance of both Japanese and fellow foreign friends because Japanese people give you a good insight into the rich culture that exists here. On the other hand, having fellow foreign friends makes you feel in place and allows you to let your hair down and simply be yourself. Also having foreign friends gives you the opportunity to vent frustrations from time to time as they accumulate.

Yes, you do need a thick skin. Why? Because not only are there people in Japan who may drive you crazy but also fellow foreigners. I had an experience where in a bar, a drunken Japanese man scared me when he grabbed my neck all of a sudden and said to me in my ear "Be sure to drink and enjoy it, Ok? (Translation gets lost a bit from meaning "Tanoshiku nomou ne, wakaru?" ) and he then tightened his grip on my neck so much that it hurt. I then had to shake and told him "Don't touch me, fork off" and he then left me alone. I thought I was going to be assaulted........

That being said, in a separate incident another drunken Japanese man started to say in his stupor that he has met teachers that have taken bribes to give extra marks to students and that I should never do it. I ended up saying "Why would I do that? JETS undergo a stringent character check in the process of application and that such conduct is disgraceful on me and my BOE." He then kept on going and going and he grabbed my shirt and I thought I was going to be attacked yet again. I had to tell this individual to let go of me and after paying my bill(check) I hurriedly left for fear that he was going to assault me.

I still go to that bar and luckily I haven't seen those two individuals since. Yes, you do need a thick skin here............

cafebleu · Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 404

Good initial post Homer and good replies. As a woman I think the J experience is going to be different (completely different) in any number of cases and you need decent support to stay here longer than 1 or 2 years.

I`d like to ask Celeste, Sherri, Tokyo Liz and anybody else who is a woman (men are also welcome to reply!) if they feel like I do that overall men will tend to have more positive experiences. I am not referring to the dating situation although it is clear that any number of foreign women leave Japan because they are left out of the dating experience. I am referring to the way in which I believe men can have more positive experiences in getting to know `the locals`, particularly in the countryside.

When I lived in a certain countryside place (at that time I had no partner), I longed to go to local watering holes, little shops where you can eat delicious food you would never find in my home country Blighty, and places where I could really meet J people who did not know English and with whom I could communicate in the Jp language. I could not do that because men could go by themselves to these places (inc foreigners) but for women it was just something they didn`t do.

I read on eslcafe some time ago how a man recommended meeting Japanese people and learning the lingo. He hung around with a group of men who spoke only in Japanese and he learnt a lot about drinking/eating culture and the local ben. I envy men who have those possibilities. I also think that Japanese women (particularly ones in their forties and over and in the countryside) just will not relax and let a foreign women get to know them or relax in their company the way Japanese men will.

I had bad experiences in a countryside place - mentioned on a thread sometime ago and which sparked what I thought was an irrational response from somebody because I think what I posted affected his notion that the countryside people he had lived among were jolly companions who never spoke ill of foreigners or practised that claustrophic Japanese countryside sport of watching others and talking about their activities, real or imagined

Even when I have not had bad experiences in the past in the countryside (I have lived in a few locations), I found myself subjected to questions about my private life that reminded me of impudent children`s mentalities. I could not relax with the local women because they asked too many personal questions, made too many assumptions, and patronised me too much. I don`t believe if I were a foreign man, Japanese men would have done the same.

I believe such Japanese women`s energies go into this gossiping, childishly curious mentality because of the genrally limited nature of their lives in the countryside. I also believe a lot of it is the culturally sanctioned need to always put somebody above you or believe you that still marks Japanese society. If you don`t live here long you may not recognise that as the fact it is. The Japanese tend to do it automatically because their society is structured that way. Foreigners of course are never going to be in any position except that out of the `below` or `outside` person although there will be exceptions. I think Japanese women`s tendencies in the countryside to gossip unashamedly and tell their neighbours what to do even when it is absolutely nothing to do with them demonstrates the preoccupation with control in Japanese society - it is worse with women because they are lacking in real power and status here.

What do you think?

markle · Joined: 17 Jan 2003 Posts: 1316 Location: Out of Japan

Aside from a few days holiday, I haven't lived in Japan but I have lived in Thailand for extended periods since I was 18.

regarding cafe bleu's proposition I think that a man's experience will be different but I doubt it it would be 'easier'. A similar idea did the rounds that Thailand was a guy's 'wet dream', Thai women were so subservient, yada yada yada. The reality was of course quite different, and I think the situation in Japan would be the same. Also there is alot of 'hidden' power for women, especially in the countryside. As for all that 'scrutiny' well close community relation is a feature of rural communities around the globe.

A thick skin is all well and good but really it only addresses the symptoms of a deeper problem. What most people really need is an open mind. An ability to accept and deal with what are really superficial differences in outlook, approach to life, ways of interacting etc, is going to be more useful in the long run than an ability to ignore things they find upsetting. The idea is not to get upset in the first place.

Finally I would like to ask people to consider the kinds of negative experiences facing the average Asian, especially women, back home.

fromCanada · Joined: 20 Sep 2003 Posts: 48 Location: Ontario

Hi All.

I'm a Japanese-Canadian woman (first generation) and here is my two cents.

Basically, I think you need thick skin whenever you venture beyond your own borders (and perhaps even beyond your front door). People have different mentalities about foreigners in every country. I am a Canadian with non-British descent and I have experienced racism/annoying and ignorant questions from Americans, Brits, Aussies, Germans - even fellow Canadians! However, I refuse to pass judgement on an entire people based on the negative experiences I have had. You just end up being bitter and becoming the "whiny foreigner" everyone detests. I, too, admit to have done my share of b*tching having lived in Germany for a year. (Now don't be get me started on those Germans Wink

). So for those who have "issues" with Japanese people...please don't generalize! I'm a Japanese woman and I certainly don't consider myself "childish."

By the way, I have never lived in Japan and I have citizenship. It should be interesting to see how I will be treated as an "English teacher" when I get there this fall!

cafebleu · Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 404

Thanks for your reply fromCanada. It was great to hear the perspective of a Canadian-Japanese person. I`d just like to make one thing clear - I wasn`t saying Japanese women per se are childish nor was I having `issues` with a whole culture.

But I have lived in Japan for some time (you have yet to go there) and I can tell you, coming from the UK and having experienced Canada, the US, New Zealand and Australia, it is just so different experiencing a monocultural society. I took the pleasures of racial diversity in the UK somewhat for granted when I lived there - I have never done so since I have lived in Japan.

Sure there are racists in western countries but when you come to Japan if you really live here for some time, especially in the countryside which is in a bit of a time warp, it can hit you very hard. As an intelligent woman I found it hard being patronised in Japan or in hearing racist and ignorant comments about foreigners daily, and still do.

It does happen and I don`t think that you have to defend Japanese society and people from well-thought views of foreigners who have put up with institutionalised and non-institutionalised racism here. Something that still frustrates me is when I go back to the UK for a holiday and realise that foreign students such as Japanese doing homestays or studying in my homecountry for a limited period of time, have more legal rights and privileges in that short time in the UK than I have living in Japan for some time as a working person paying taxes and carrying out all my obligations.

It is not going to change but that doesn`t mean foreigners who live here have to accept meekly and excuse on the grounds of the fact that Japan is a monocultural society. Japanese people are not incapable of thinking about such issues and they do need to think about them. It all seems very one-sided to me - most of the Japanese people I have spoken to about different ways of life etc in western countries and in Japan take it for granted that they will enjoy a legal status and privileges that they are unwilling to grant to foreigners in Japan.

For me this thoughtless racism came home when I went back to the UK last year. At the airport going home I was in the company of many Japanese people. Sure, these people were middle aged to senior citizen age as well as younger but hearing them constantly talk and laugh about `Gaijin` - literally `outside person` - when the Japanese are the foreigners, not the Brits, made me angry in a way it doesn`t in Japan. My Japanese listening level is very good and what really struck me is that these people did not seem to have learnt from their foreign travels. It simply served to reinforce how Japanese they were (taking this from their own comments), and the liberty of some of the men in laughing about `bakana gaijin` (literally `stupid outsiders`) in front of all of us so-called gaijin who were actually in our home country.

As for my comments about women in the countryside - that is why I asked for comments from foreign women who have experienced Japan more deeply than a one year teaching stint or have never come here. Sherri, Celeste, Tokyo Liz - come on, please comment on the initial observations I made in my first post!

cafebleu · Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 404

About the airport - I meant to say `going back to Japan`. This was when we were waiting to leave Blighty. I should add that I said to the men, `Nihongo ga wakaru yo. Igirisu wa watashi no kuni - gaijin dewa nai yo.`

They stopped their laughing and their ignorant comments.