Job Discussion Forums

[Ediyanto Liu]

Dear all,

I came across the discussion forum at Dave's ESL Cafe a couple of weeks ago and have found most of the entries very helpful. However, there is a nother topic which seems to have never been raised before and it concerns the nationality issue.

I am Indonesian Chinese. At present I am in Singapore and have been teaching Chinese ESL students part-time for more than a year. I have just got my Master's degree in English studies from National University of Singapore and am very much interested in teaching in China, especially in Shenzhen of Guangdong province. The problem is that most of the websites advertising the vacancies I have browsed through require the prospective teachers to be a native speaker, which I find very daunting. In the light of this, there are several questions I would like to ask to satisfy my curiosity:


1) Being a non-native speaker, do I stand a chance of making it there? (I do not have any preference of the schools where I will teach--be it a public or private school)

2) What is the pay like for a non-native speaker? Will I get a decent pay?

3) Will my 5-year- teacing experience in my home country and my present part-time job count? ( I do not have a TESOL or TEFL certificate and I come from teaching at private language schools background)

4) Could anybody recommend good websites for teaching-in-China jobs (of course apart from Dave's great website)?

5) Is it advisable to fly to China and try to secure a job on-the-spot before landing a job on the Net?

I would appreciate any information and help.


Cheers,


Eddie.

[hubei_canuk]

[Roger]

Hello Eddy,

I have to agree to a large extent with the previous poster on this question! The reason is that English teaching is a highly futile effort in this country of the make-believe and Potemkin villages!
I have a European colleague who is fluent in Mandarin, married to a Chinese national. They both work a few kms from my home - he makes 8000 RMB, she makes 1500 RMB working at the same school! He only puts in 24 hours a week, she almost 40!

It is not always like this! You can land yourself a decent job with some perseverance, connections and, perhaps, being an impostor!
There are some Filippina women working in Guangdong. Interestingly, they make more in Guangdong than their sisters earn in HK working as domestic helpers!

I suppose you have to gamble and invest a little effort and money. Some SIngaporeans work here too. I know a Zhongshan training centre that hired one besides three Canadians and one Zambian.
I have known some forward-looking employers - but remember CHina is a country with hugely increased opportunities of making money, which is so new to most Chinese that scruples have not had time to develop yet!
Wish you good luck,
Roger

[Steven C]

Hey Eddy

I'm an ABC from Australia. When I first arrived in GZ, the task of securing a teaching job was literately impossible since I didn't have a western face. The first job that I was offer paid 2500 RMB per month teaching 25 hours a week. I didn't mind too much about my wage since I was enjoying what I was doing. Lucky I saved a bit before coming over. The situation is now much better, the current place I am working at rewards on ability and not on appearance. I am paid the same as my western colleagues. The GM is an ABC himself and was feed up with getting underpaid as a teacher so he started his' own centre. There are ample of opportunities if you are persistence enough. Gook luck!

[MyTurnNow]

I'd like to begin by reinforcing what Roger said...if you perservere you can find something OK here. Can't recommend ever applying for any job as an impostor; perhaps that raaaaascally Roger was just the kidding of you.

That said, be prepared for a lot of rejection along the way. Many, many places will only hire people from countries where English is the first language- The USA, The UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa...and some schools will overlook sharing with French in Canada. They will not even consider a lot of countries where English is an official or de facto "co-first-language"- The Philippines, Nigeria, India, Pakistan, etc.- much less people from countries where English is not as common.

There is also a racial element here. There is a strong feeling of "If it isn't white, it isn't Western" among many people here...and they want Western teachers. They often pay exorbiant tuition to sit in an English class, and if the teacher doesn't fit their stereotype then they feel "cheated" and believe me, they get very angry- I've seen it! Even non-white natives of the USA, UK, Australia etc. can face some resistance here. Some managers who would personally love to hire such people may not do so because they fear a negative response from their student customers. Meanwhile, there are many English teachers here from Germany, The Netherlands, France, etc...their English is good AND they look right. Every time I go to the slush pile to hire new teachers, I have to listen to my school's Chinese owner screeching "No black! No black!" (He likes Asians OK because he thinks he can easily intimidate them. And I ignore him anyway... thanks to a GREAT parent company _I_ hire teachers, not him. )

If you are not from one of the primary English countries AND are not a white person, you are going to face ALL of these obstacles.

I am NOT writing this to discourage you away from China. If your English is at native-level fluency then there will be a job here for you. I simply want you to be ready for a possible struggle to find it.

I wish you luck,
MT

[Gouki]

1) Being a non-native speaker, do I stand a chance of making it there? (I do not have any preference of the schools where I will teach--be it a public or private school)

Maybe. Like the others have said, a lot largely depends on who is willing to take you in and your ability to teach. Most schools do prefer a westerner because most students want to see and experience talking to one. I have seen Asian Americans, Indian Americans (but no African Americans) as teachers. They seem to do better than others because they try harder (perhaps to prove themselves). Or the other teachers are simply slack and lazy :-p

2) What is the pay like for a non-native speaker? Will I get a decent pay?

Probably not as good as a native speaker. I believe the national language in Singapore is Malay. Singaporean English is pathetic.

I think you should teach in Singapore because their standard of English is still not up to scratch and you get better pay there. If you have 5 years experience, then I'm sure you can command a minimal salary of about $1800-$2000 per month.

That is going to be a lot more than what you can ever get in China. Furthermore, you probably have your own place to stay and everything is familiar to you.

In China, you probably wouldn't get $1000 SG per month. Despite its lower cost of living, you would probably only take home $500 SG per month. Food has gotten more expensive, I don't believe you would eat Chinese food every day.

Financially speaking, Singapore is a better prospect for you.

3) Will my 5-year- teacing experience in my home country and my present part-time job count? ( I do not have a TESOL or TEFL certificate and I come from teaching at private language schools background)

It should, but shouldn't you have some teaching qualifications? 5 years is a long time, I would expect you to provide plenty of materials and knowledge in teaching the different levels. Some schools may think that you're over qualified, meaning that your ideas may conflict with theirs and it is not good to argue with the management.

4) Could anybody recommend good websites for teaching-in-China jobs (of course apart from Dave's great website)?

Dave's is probably the best one to look for. Let me know if you find others.

5) Is it advisable to fly to China and try to secure a job on-the-spot before landing a job on the Net?

No, no way! Secure a job first from your place before flying over. Schools will not accept prospects walking through the door, especially if it is an Asian. Consider this, how many Chinese natives are there in China with perfect English? How many can be considered the job of teaching English? Jobs are sacred for Chinese, competition is fierce(sp?). There is a reason why schools would rather employ foreigners at 4000-5000 yen than natives at 1000-1500 yen.

I repeat, do not fly here looking for a job. If you are accept for one, then its either a desperate school and you will have to leave the country again to get the right visa.

Don't let my post discourage you. Everything depends on how well you sell yourself, how comfortable you are at being you, and how good your accent is. Sorry to say, 'kiasu' Singaporeans and I are not the best of friends, but most of them are OK. Some people/cultures may in fact share the same perspectives.

Let me know if you need further advice

[Roger]

I have to take issue with two claims made by the previous poster:

- DO NOT FLY HERE TO SCOUT THE COUNTRY FOR A JOB:
I want to ask: Why not?
It is just as good a way of getting a job as by e-mail, perhaps more reliable as they often "hire" dozens via the Internet, thinking only one does make it here!
If they really need someone, they will accept him or her who has entered through the door! A nice dressing act and good presentation will help, and, of course, being fluent and proficient at English!
Yes, you will get rejections in your face, but these are preferable to being ignored completely (no e-mails answered!).

- What's "pathetic" about Singaporean English? It is a perfectly acceptable national variety just like Cockney English or a Texan drawl! It is neither substandard nor better than the Queen's English. I mean the NATIONAL ENGLISH widely used in SIngapore, not the dialectal variety spoken by many (but not all) in the streets!

[Gouki]

[hubei_canuk]

Steven:
ABC is not the same as Asian Chinese.
Yes schools have hired ABC (American Born Chinese) here in West Hubei (one and actually half chinese, half american but looked chinese)
Why? Because they are PRODUCTS of western culture. It is not the language that is important. ASIAN chinese here would not get hired, they would just hire a chinese university grad.
...
You can't compare yourself to Eddy. It's not the same.
..
regards
max
......
I must reveal: applicants often sent me every piece of information except what the chinese bosses really care about. i.e. info about race, sex, age and a photo. What is protected by human rights orgs in the West is not so here.
Sadly 10 years experience, MA 's in education just almst mean nothing. I think of it a primarily a PR job for Western Culture. Especially when one takes into consideration that Oral English is not that much help to passing the dreading high school entrance and university entrance exanms. In that respect techers mostly just have an inspirational role.
To some extent this might be ameliorated in the 3 biggest cities of which i am not too familiar.
But remember they say: "Beijing is not china".

Steven C said:
---------------------------
Hey Eddy

I'm an ABC from Australia. When I first arrived in GZ, the task of securing a teaching job was literately impossible since I didn't have a western face. The first job that I was offer paid 2500 RMB per month teaching 25 hours a week. I didn't mind too much about my wage since I was enjoying what I was doing. Lucky I saved a bit before coming over. The situation is now much better, the current place I am working at rewards on ability and not on appearance. I am paid the same as my western colleagues. The GM is an ABC himself and was feed up with getting underpaid as a teacher so he started his' own centre. There are ample of opportunities if you are persistence enough. Gook luck!

[wOZfromOZ]

Comeon down Gouki !


My mates at the Pudong PSB just love to talk with you lovely guys who talk like you do about us oZZies. We'll make sure you'll have no problems here!!! LOL

wOZfromOZ

[arioch36]

I'm afraid i can't agree with Gouki, who says,

"Logic will tell you that there is no guarantees in finding a job if you just fly over. That is the most expensive option as you have to bring a lot of money for hotel, travel, food etc etc etc. If you get rejected, then you could move on and try another school nearby. Get rejected again, I wonder how your moral stands now? Seems like a waste of time and expensive. Get the drift? "

Sure, if you have absolutely no money, you might want to find a job by e-mail first. But showing up in person is an excellent way to get jobs, not just here, but in most countries.

Last August I decided to come back to Henan. Via internet i found the addresses of five or six colleges. Visited each one, usually stayed for free at their place, was treated to a nice dinner..not that food costs anything here. Every place agreed to hire me on the spot. I was able to see the classrooms, where I would live, etc. Also made some good contacts, and learned a lot.

If you know where you want to teach, maybe have two cities you want to visit, come, have a little vaction, and do some shopping in person

This is even more important is you are a non-native speaker, or a native speaker, but not from UK US or OZ. Their worry, rightly so, is if your english is clear and easy to understand

[Stephen]

As far as just turning up and finding a job goes, it seems to me that you need to decide if you have enough money to do this even if no job materialises. Turning up anywhere in the world with no job and insufficient funds is a bad plan. If you turned up and you desperately needed a job, then my feelings are that you'd end up getting screwed by whatever employer took you on. (Afterall, you'd hardly be in a good negotiating position.)

Regards
Stephen

PS. What is the EFL market like in Singapore? If you go over to the mainland but can't find work, can you easily find work in Singapore upon your return?

[Gouki]

[Gouki]

[hubei_canuk]

Guy..
guys...
guys
GUYS!!!!
..
You're talking to yoursleves.
Eddie posted one post on ESL to date and never came back..