Job Discussion Forums

[Ger]

Please could someone give me the details of an Anger Management course that I could attend.

I felt a rush of anger flooding through my body recently as a result of having to deal with immigration officials to get an extension of stay visa.

Why the anger? My passport expired and, last time I applied for a work visa, immigration would only give a five month permit because of my passport expiry date. I have a new passport now.

So I went to immigration on my day off (I had to cancel some lessons that I usually attend and wanted to avoid giving wifey the pleasure of deducting my salary, which would have happened if I had gone to immigration on a work day).

An immigration official told me that I was too early, that they couldn't accept my application outside of a month of the expiry date of the visa in my passport.

I asked if there was any way that they could accept my application early and I was asked why.

Why should immigration accept my application at 6 weeks prior to the expiry date of my visa? I was told that they had a policy of only accepting applications 4 weeks prior to the visa expiry date.

I explained that I understood what I was being told, that the visa had been particularly short because of my passport expiry date. I was told, irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant. Policy is policy.

However, I reasoned that since I was there at immigration offices, and I had cancelled my lessons, and it was my day off, and I had my new passport, and copies of all the relevant forms, and documents, and a letter from wifey's husband giving sponsorship, and Sunday was my only other day off and immigration is closed on Sundays, and could immigration policy withstand an exception in this case by accepting my papers two weeks early.

Could immigration keep my papers on file for two weeks and process them two weeks' later? The officer looked at me very suspiciously and said that I would have to write a letter to the Director of Immigration with my reasons. I agreed. I said I would write it while at the offices. I asked, could I have a sheet of paper please? The official actually gave me a sheet.

I asked, "Are there any reasons that immigration policy wouldn't allow the consideration of?" I was told to write my reasons and nearly told to stop asking stupid questions!

I wrote my letter to the director of immigration. I took a photocopy and handed it in. An official read the letter and said it wasn't detailed enough. What lessons had I cancelled on my day off? Re-write the letter.

I re-wrote the letter. Handed it in. Forgot to photocopy it. Official read it. Official said, you say that XX day is your day off and that you go to Zhuhai to practise taichiquan and Chinese massage! Yes, officer, I'm not in HK on my days off. The official tried to dissuade me from submitting the letter. She said, anyone found working on their days off will be liable to prosecution. I replied, yes, officer I know. Please look at my passport you will see zhuhai stamps to show that I am usually in Zhuhai on my days off and I cancelled today's lessons. Besides if I were to take a work day off, my boss would deduct my salary.

The official said, your reason is weak, have you got annual leave days to take. I replied, no officer since I haven't been at the company for more than 5 months I'm not entitled to annual leave until I work for a year. Official said, sorry you will have to re-write the letter and put that reason in too. I agreed.

However, at that moment the official read wifey's husband's letter of continued sponsorship again. The officer said the word "salary" out loud and then mumbled "oh so small, looked towards her colleague and sniggered". The officer said that the sponsorship letter was inadequate since it was not addressed to the "Director of Immigration", nor did it state that I am an "English Teacher". I pointed out that the letter refered to my contract, the parties thereto, the date thereof. The contract stated my profession as an "English Teacher". The official said, "No, sorry, policy dictates that you have to produce supporting evidence and this document (sponsorship letter) is inadequate. So I suggest that you come back in two weeks' time to submit your documents."

With this I don't know why I felt humiliated, I knew that my salary was low, and that the school office girl (piano teacher turned supervisor/ manageress) had terrible English and she didn't write "Director of Immigration", and that wasn't in my control.

I felt defeated too. I burst out crying in frustration and phoned my fiance(e) who is Chinese. My fiance(e) told me to pass the mobile phone to the official and they talked. I sat there sobbing and hegging, snots and tears rolling down my face, I had no hankies and no water!! Loads of people were looking at me.

Eventually, the official agreed to accept my application, subject to my re-writing my letter to his-truly with reasons for early submission, and after waiting for a while (during which time I went out to buy some hankies and water) gave me a visa collection date, and told me on that date to submit a fresh sponsorship letter from wifey's husband stating my "profession" and properly addressed to you-know-who, otherwise I wouldn't get the visa.

I left. I felt extremely angry, upset, and frustrated, but at least I didn't have to go back to submit the application later, only to collect the visa.

Anyway, if you know of an anger management course that I could attend please let me know. I find living as an immigrant to be a very angering existence.

P.S. : Now that I think of it, it could be possible that wifey deliberately misaddressed the letter and left out vital information so that I would know my place in the Centre and realise that my bread & butter comes to me only because they allow it.

[once again]

I have known other people refused acceptance of application because they were before cut off dates.

To be honest, anybody that has ever been in an HK immigration office should have a lot of sympathy for the applicants and a little empathy for the officers. In my own experience I have found that treating them in the same way as I would try to treat anybody in such a stressful job has always led to cordial relationships. The situations of applicants is stressful as they want to remain in the region, and often will get so emotional when told that they do not meet requirements. If every time an immigtration officer decided to make allowances just because it was inconvenient for the applicant, then I guess most people would agree that the whole process would become a little messy to say the least.

Getting a new passport before you applied for the first visa would have helped you. But moving away from your present job now you have a visa would seem like a sensible option.
Best of luck.

[Ger]

Ye, that's the word the official used, "inconvenience" isn't a good enough reason for accepting an early application, we have to think about the floodgates.

I would argue that exceptions to the rules have to be allowed. There is the case-by-case approach which immigration cite when it suits them.

My employment visa is relevant only to that employer at that address and during that particular duration and doing that particular job and getting that particular salary. Any change, however slight, to any of those factors and it's back to square one - new application, new waiting period of 6 weeks, new visa taking up a new visa page in my passport...

[ChrisRose]

I always have a fear of the ID offices.

I think about all the exotic diseases being spread by the 3rd and 4th world�ers.

As far as the ID staff go, they have always seemed polite and helpful in my opinion. They help you fill in the endless forms, try to explain procedures and above all.....

This being Hong Kong, no need to worry about corruption or over charging.
The staff deal with huge numbers of people everyday, ranging from irate, to illegals, and treat everyone with respect and politeness.

When you feel you�re being treated unfairly, just think of all the shit you have to put up with when it comes to school principles overriding the English panels. I think you will understand the analogy.

To the original poster, chin up. If you are British, pull out a stiff upper lip.

If you are still dissatisfied, try a day trip to China and compare the contrast of their visa officers. Then on your return journey, smile, breathe a breath of relief at seeing the good old honest HK police officer at the border, and that little bowl of free and that welcomes you back into honest for the most part (exceptions text book publisher and real estate companies) corruption free.

[echo2004sierra]

Chris, your perspective is interesting! Take a trip to China. Hong Kong is China.

100________________________________________________________0

HK is 10
"China" is 9
Britian 100

Ger should hold his British chin up and say, "I'm doing well, I only have to deal with a bureaucracy that rates 10 on the politeness, corruption, and efficiency scale. I'm doing well compared to those in China, they have to deal with one that rates 9. What about 100, Chris? How well is Ger doing in relation to 100.

What if someone regards bureaucracy in the PRC as 50 on the humane, non-sniggering, and flexible scale, with HKSAR scoring 12?

To some extent the spectrum is a red herring in relation to the original message, because Ger's problem seems, not only to be how to deal with his anger, but also how to come to terms with living as an alien in HK and the discrimination against him that is built into the system. It is systemic discrimination legalised by laws (HK people sitting in Legco making laws designed to keep foreigners out or down), perpetuated by rule-following, procedures, and policies.

Sure, Ger has to manage his anger. To some extent HK officials have to become tactful and not "snigger" at the low salaries that immigrants earn, probably because of bureaucracy laws descriminating against aliens so that they won't take locals' rice bowls (jobs), probably because foreigners lack Cantonese skills, probably because the EMB has raised the bar for working in education and lowered the salaries, probably because HK isn't under Brit rule now, and probably because local employers are taking advantage of the whole set up!

Praise be HK, praise be its bureaucracy.

[Ger]

Mainland Chinese immigration laws allow foreigners to work WHILE their sponsorship papers are being processed.

A foreigner's mainland Chinese employer has a month or so in which to lodge documents on behalf of that foreign employee before the employer incurs a fine or penalty.

Why can't HK immigration be flexible?

Oh and back to my original post: anyone know of an anger management website for HK or contact number, or would giving such information show you up as ANGRY?!

[once again]

Taken from the BBC website "A study in Saudi Arabia has concluded that the practice of allowing men to marry up to four wives is the principal cause of divorce in the Kingdom."

Why can't HK be more flexible.

From admesty internationals website:

"In China, limited and incomplete records available to Amnesty International at the end of the year indicated that at least 726 people were executed, but the true figure was believed to be much higher: a senior Chinese legislator suggested in March 2004 that China executes "nearly 10,000" people each year"

Why oh why can't HK be more flexible.

On a more serious note, it is unlikely that many people would flock to China to work at a much lower rate than the locals. If HK were to allow one months worth of work for every immigrant without first checking that that labour couldn't be provided locally, then most jobs in HK would be filled by people from the mainland here for a month and then going again.

[once again]

On the anger management thing, why not just call the Samaritans and ask if they can help? They have English speakers and they would probably have lots of numbers for such things that they could give you.

[Ger]

Hong kong immigration reasoning, logic or policy-following is beyong my comprehension, is time wasting, passport visa-page wasting and manpower-wasting.

What am I talking about? I bought a new passport in April, I need a new one now again and I am waiting for my new passport to be issued and sent over from my country. It takes time. Passports are not cheap. It is not easy to buy one. There is red tape and inconvenience involved. I want to save space in my passport but HK immigration officials keep putting in unnecessary stamps thereby filling up my blank visa pages.

When I return to HK from the mainland, I show my passport and HK ID to HK immigration officials. I am an immigrant here in HK. There is a HK visa (using up half a visa page in my passport showing clearly that I am not a permanent resident and clearly showing the permitted to remain/expiry until 2007/01/07 date). My HK visa shows that I'm allowed to stay in HK until 2007/01/07. HK immigration officials puts a date stamp (for the date of entry to HK) in my passport (taking up passport visa page space), HK immigration than puts another "allowed to remain in HK until 2007/01/07" stamp in my passport taking up more visa-page space and duplicating information which is already clearly displayed on my visa.

Today I asked two young female immigration officials why is it that I have to get two stamps in my passport: one stamp showing the date I entered HK, the other showing the "allowed to remain..." stamp when the second date is clearly marked on my visa? I was told that this is policy.

I said I am trying to understand the reason or logic for this policy. I was told that the MEANING of the single stamp showing the date I entered HK is for a permanent resident, so immigration has to put the other stamp showing "allowed to remain..." stamp to change this meaning!

I asked how could that single stamp possibly have such a meaning (that of permanent resident) when my visa clearly shows that I am an alien in HK and permitted to remain until XXXXXX date, there is also my HK ID which shows my stay is conditional. How could the single entry stamp have such a meaning.

Do we not look at the whole context for meaning?

I explained that when entering the PRC the officials look at my visa expiry date and stamp the date I enter but they don't duplicate the visa expiry date information, nor am I required to have a PRC ID separate from my passport (which actually is my ID).

The HK official told me that what the PRC do is none of Hk immigration's business!!!

I told the HK officials that they might learn some lessons from the PRC officials, lessons on how to save time and space in my passport by not duplicating even triplicating information.

Who is so stupid as to need information triplicated?

The HK officials said saving space in your passport is not our concern, we follow policy, and we have to modify the MEANING of the single entry date stamp by adding the "allowed to remain until..." stamp, whether that information is marked on your visa or not.

[travelem]

If you have dealt with the US immigration, the HK immigration isn't special at all!!!

[newteach]

Here is where I may offer some assistance

There is a technique called EFT. Emotional Freedom. There is lots of info you can find and download from the www. However, there is a man who teaches it at the Reflections Book Shop . His name is Chris.

RESOURCES CENTRE - KOWLOON


5th Floor, Park Hovan Commercial Building,18 Hillwood Road, TST, Kowloon

(MTR Jordan Station Exit D �V turn left 2 blocks down towards Tsim Sha Tsui)


Tel 2735 3262

In the mean time, beat your pillow, shout into a folded bath towel, jump up and down. It all helps

Bless

[Ger]

EFT - Emotional Freedom Technique

Chris teaches it.

www./ website?

I'll check it all out thanks, I hope it is not a deadlink!

How much does Chris charge per hour for the counselling?

Mastering emotional control (anger management) is one thing, getting immigration to stop wasting my time, their time, and space in my passport, thereby easing the inconvenience caused is quite another matter.

Does this Chris fellow have any techniques for moving immigration?

[Ger]

The up-date is that today's HK immigration wore two black issue gloves and couldn't turn the pages of my passport easily, but apparently it is his right to wear such gloves and he took as long as he liked to try to find my visa.

Initially, he eventually found the latest visa, my dependant's visa, and he stamped the permitted to remain until date (date/month/year) in my newly bought passport (which is the property of the government of the country in which my parents gave birth to me even though I paid HK1,000 for it + travel costs and time to visit the consulate of my country in HK ), that same permitted to remain date is printed on that same dependant's visa.

Then, he stumbled across my previous employment permit and he scribble out the first permitted to remain stamp and date/month/year (which was the right one) and he put in another stamp "employment permitted to remain date/month/year (which was the wrong stamp to put in and he treated my passport like a school boy's exercise book).

After that he proceeded to try to put in the entry date stamp and couldn't do it properly with wearing the gloves, but he managed to smudge red ink in my passport but even with the Hubble telescope one couldn't read the date stamp!

Then he didn't know what to do, so he asked his colleague. By this time I asked him to stop wasting space in my passport because they are not cheap nor convenient to buy and I called over a superior to talk to him about his gloves and about wasting space, time and putting in the wrong stamps.

His superior told him to put the entry stamp over the smudged red ink already stamped in my passport and then called me aside to tell me what the superior had told him to do - as if I hadn't seen what had happened!

The superior told me it's the immigration counter staff's right to wear gloves. The superior failed to deal with the fact that the official's first "permitted to remain stamp" had been wrongly scribbled out and a wrong 'employment permitted to remain stamp" had been put in.

The superior proceeded to tell me that I "shouldn't think that immigration officials shouldn't wear gloves, shouldn't waste time and space" and when asked if he had a right to tell me what I should and shouldn't think he said "yes" he has and that I "shouldn't think that he hasn't".

By this time I had wasted enough time and listened to enough illogical and unreasonable words that I took back my documents and carried myself out of there - feeling quite tramatized.

There's nothing dirtier than money, when the officier handles cash does he wear gloves for fear of catching germs?!

[ChrisRose]

Sounds like they should wear disposable latex gloves.

[dandan]

LOL! That's a funny story Ger.

You must have felt like a right prat when you sobered up and realised you'd been shouting at someone for wearing gloves.