Job Discussion Forums

[echo2004sierra]

My foreign friend (with a HK ID) was doing some self-marketing looking for private learners for his English tutorials - giving out his card - he was contacted by one mother who said that because he couldn't speak Cantonese she wouldn't want her daughter to attend his English lessons because of the WORRY that the daughter wouldn't understand English during his lessons!

Is it the new common philosophy, that parents are being fed by the authorities, to expect a foreigner teaching English to speak Cantonese OR is it that HKers are giving the work to "their own boys" who are Cantonese natives with English speaker competence? OR neither of these, it was just that particular mother's view (there's nothing to fear but fear or worry itself!)?

[Roger]

I don't get it: what exactly are you bemoaning?
That a student's mother insists on a teacher having the ability to deliver in his students' mother tongue?
I don't see anything wrong with this, do you?

Of course, you might argue that students ought to learn in the target language. Evidently this is an opinion not widely shared by Chinese parents. We can regret it - or not.

On the other hand, does your friend have the permission to work on the side?

[once again]

Who are the "authorities" that you refer to? You seem to be believe that the woman was being unreasonable in her request. If that is the case, why do you think that the woman was being unreasonable?

The choices that you give as to why it happened indicate that you believe that this could only happen because of some kind of indoctrination, job protection scheme or just a weird request.

If you were to start to learn a new language, would you prefer to learn it from someone who could not speak your own language or would you prefer to learn it from someone who could?

[echo2004sierra]

my friend is ticked off because he can't speak Cantonese, he has a lot of skills and abilities but the woman picked on his LACK and he isn't happy about that. He's trying to understand the mentality of someone who would phone him up to tell him that because he can't speak Cantonese (only Mandarin and English) that she wouldn't hire him.

He feels that she shouldn't have phoned him at all if she's just going to shoot him down. My friend is a bit sensitive.

He thinks that Cantonese Chinese must sound like Scottish English!

My friend wonders whether the Education Department is not propagating the idea to parents that mother-tongue instruction is the only way for their children to learn English and that even after-school immersion would be harmful.

Further there is high unemployment for local teachers in HK and a principal of a government school recently told me that the authorities wouldn't allow her to hire a particular British teacher because there were local teachers applying for the post with native-English competency.

[ChrisRose]

It is a free market economy.

I would suggest that either your 'friend' improves his communication abilities to explain that he is competant in teachine in the target language, or perhaps consider moving to a country with a slighty different culture?

Perhps he should make it clear on his advertisments / name card which invite communication from potiential clients that he doesn't wish to hear from anyone whom harbours such considerations!

The bottom line is, his communication skills seem to have failed to asure the potential student's mother. Food for thought eh?

[once again]

Echo..your reply is interesting and sheds more light upon your earlier comments...thank you for that.

I do indeed think that Cantonese sounds like Scottish English and your friend has a right to be upset beyond his sporran. My apologies for my earlier disparaging comments.

[prplfairy]

Obviously, it�s a free market and parents can ask for a teacher with a bioengineering degree who wears a purple motorcycle helmet and rainbow socks if they want. The parent�s right to ask for anything they want at their discretion is not the issue. The issue is whether or not their demands are reasonable or not and whether they are best for the child/student.

It would be difficult to argue that all things being equal that a teacher who has native abilities in both languages would not be a greater asset. The reality of the situation though is that most of the people who teach English and speak native Cantonese or even very good Cantonese are not native English speakers and they tend to pass on their HK accent and mistakes. I would say avoiding the pitfalls of HK�s miserable English standard would be worth a native speaker.

We also need to consider the benefits of exposing kids to people from cultures they are not familiar with, as it is an inherent bonus with a foreigner. The ideal teacher then would be one who speaks fluent Cantonese and English. The next best thing is a Native English speaker who has some familiarity with the primary peculiarities of Cantonese in relation to English (e.g. tenses).

Personally, I have found with HK parents that you have to put them on the defensive. Usually they don�t like confrontation but are willing if they are the ones talking down to someone else. Anytime there is a hint of a put down I make sure to put a stop to it straight away as it will only get worse. Some parent wants to say that a non-Cantonese speaker can�t teach HK kids? Excuse me miss, but virtually every modern method of ESL/EFL on the planet endorses an immersion climate in the classroom, not to mention that the HK EMB has invested millions to promote such an environment because local weren�t getting it done. If you want to stand against modern methodology and the situation on the ground in HK then be my guest but I�m a specialist and I side with the experts on this one.

[once again]

Prpl fairy wrote

[prplfairy]

The point of that line is to intimidate the other person, not to state a universal truth. Besides you could also say that modern theory is the sum or culmination of past theories and that all the successes and failures of the past have been incorporated into modern theory. As for the flat earth theory, while incorrect it was a necessary step to finding out the world is round. Either way the theory question has little to do with the point of the thread, that being whether or not local parents are acting foolishly in not hiring non-Cantonese speakers, as somehow I don�t think those parents are surveying modern and antiquated theory and making an informed decision based on their findings.

[Susie]

At least some mainland parents favour native-speakers of English. The potential problem for those parents is that the authorities may take issue with the "illegal" aspect of foreigners doing private tutoring and this could, for one thing, effect supply and demand.

http://www.sznews.com/szdaily/20050224/ca1446644.htm

[echo2004sierra]

Just discovered another reason as to why that mother phoned me up to tell me that because I don't have Cantonese she wouldn't let her daughter learn English with me as a private tutor.

The reason could be that she has a tutorial centre in the area that charges $500 per learner for 4 lessons (1 hour each, that's $125 per learner) and she would want to discourage me from giving out my name card ($50 per learner per hour minimum 4 students) on "her patch"!

[once again]

There is not much point in using a flawed argument to intimidate someone: it will have the opposite effect. By stating that the HK government has spent millions on NET teachers (I am assuming that is what you mean) and suggesting that this somehow gives validity to the theory that non-Cantonese speakers can teach English is to say this:
The HK government has spent millions on it, therefore it must be correct. This would only be valid if it could be shown that the HK government never made misjudgments. Clearly this is not true, there are many examples of the government wasting money on ill- conceived projects; I am sure the student�s mother could name a few.

There are also many examples of theories of education being in vogue and then out of vogue. When I did my initial teacher training I was told that teacher talking time should be kept to a minimum. Now it is being suggested that teacher talk is a great source of input for the students and not to be so discouraged. That is a perfect example of a once modern and accepted theory being challenged.

A better line of intimidation would be �Lots of people learn a language from someone who does not speak their own, but maybe your daughter is not smart enough to do that�.
The original premise cannot be challenged as it can be shown to be true. Point to the ESF primary schools and kindergartens who employ native speakers and who take in kids whose L1 is Cantonese.

On the point of thinking that the earth was flat being a necessary step to discovering that the earth was round-why? If they had thought that the earth was round then they would have been correct. They could have tested the theory and still been correct. They thought it was flat, tested it and found out they were wrong.

If you think that parents are not surveying modern and antiquated theory to make informed decisions, why do seek to use the idea of modern and antiquated theories to make them change their mind. Are you suggesting that you are introducing the idea to them: suggesting that their theories are outdated? I am not really sure of your point here;it seems to be self defeating.

[prplfairy]

[echo2004sierra]

It seems that some people, to whom my friend has given his name card, are phoning him up and just pretending to enquire about lessons for their children, but really they want to know what his legal status is so that they can feel like good citizens and report him to the police.

He is married to a local and is therefore allowed to work legally because he has a dependant's visa, for which he had to wait 6 weeks after getting married.

The immigration department doesn't seem to realise or care that it is shooting itself in the foot by taking soooo long to grant dependant visas and employment permits. In taking 6 weeks, the immigration department prevents the applicant from earning money, thereby, preventing the inland revenue from getting tax from that applicant!!!!

On the point of paying tax, are there any laws governing tax earnings made on private tutorials?

[dandan]

It doesn't usually take six weeks for visa proscessing, so there can be no possible explanation other than that the immigration officer is obviously in league with the woman with a tutor centre who's pretending to be a parent and the army of parent impersonators trying to send him to jail.

I would suggest that your 'friend' hide under the bed for a few weeks until it blows over and then get a complete identity change. For a small fee I can put him in touch with a plastic surgeon who can perform the necessary re-constructive facial surgery. Although the 'surgeon' looks like an old man who sleeps under the flyover in Mongkok, I can assure you that he is in fact a highly trained surgeon who works for the NET Underground Tactical Training Association (NUTTA) a crack underground cell of ETA.

And remember, don't use the phone. The English Tutor Surveilance Squad are bound to be tapping your phone.

.... and if you hear helicopters overhead, start running and don't look back.