Job Discussion Forums

[xnihil]

My apologies in advance for the lengthy, and somewhat preachy rant. I just wanted to get this off my chest.

There are some of you out there (you know who you are) who seem to consider it your mission on this page to mock, harrass, discourage and generally give a hard time to those people who come onto this forum looking for entry level information about the field of ESL. I would like you to stop.

Since I am still a reletive newbie to the field (2 years experience, TESOL cert w/o MA yet), I can still remember what it was that first attracted me to being an ESL teacher. I wanted to travel but I didn't have the money to just go off as a tourist; I needed to work my way around the globe.

As is so common in many life events, I found that the means was as rewarding (or more) than the ends. I found that I loved teaching, loved investigating the intricies of the English language and especially loved helping people acquire a skill that was valuble to them. In short, starting as a "backpacker", I found a career.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that many of the participants in this forum have had similar experiences.

When I first decided to teach abroad, I came to Dave's Cafe (as well as other sites) and began my search for work. The wording of my post was probably similar to what we see here on a regular basis (New, unqualified teacher looking for high paying job in Arabic speaking country). Luckily, there were people online who were willing to point me in some good directions and I was able to find an excellent position on which to cut my teeth.

Now, had some of you been as active then, I suspect I would have gotten much of the flack that I've been seeing on this forum (don't bother trying to teach, don't waste our time, go back to school first, you are stealing jobs from good teachers etc..you've all seen the posts). I'm glad I didn't because it may have given an unfortunate color to my first ESL experience.

Its not the advice that I find so unfortunate, but rather the hostile tone in which it is offered. And the absolute way in which this false information is presented. It may be easier to find work if you have experience and credentials, but it is possible to find some sort of paying job if you simply have command of the English language.

And I totally reject the notion that entry level teachers are stealing work from more qualified ones. If you're a better teacher, then prove it and you will be rewarded. If not, then I doubt your premise.

I'm sorry this is such a long and preachy rant but I've been reading this forum for a little while now and I find it discouraging that some of the veterans are so demeaning and hostile to the newbies. What's the point of a free exchange of information if we're going to attack those that ask for our help? If you don't have useful information for them, my advice is to keep your mouth shut and let others do the talking.

Remember, all of us were new to the field at some point, and I think we owe it to ourselves and to our profession to nurture and not attack those who might one day work alongside of us.

Remember: Today's Backpackers are tomorrow's Jaded Curmudgeons

[johnslat]

Dear xnihil,
You made, I think, some good points. But I'll bet this turns out to be a long and occasionally acrimonious thread. This subject tends to polarize posters a lot - it's either: " backpackers are all worthless scum "; or " backpackers are fine people ". Of course, the reality probably is a bit of both - some backpackers probably should never be allowed to set foot in a classroom, pretending to teach English because they're " native speakers ", while others probably go in and do as good or even better a job than many " qualified " teachers. But let's see what your post brings forth. It should prove interesting, anyway.
Regards,
John

[Roger]

This is no flak (or "flack" as you have it), but my personal opinion.
There might be circumstances under which a total stranger to this profession could be tolerated. I am thinking of mature people who commit themselves as much as they are asking to be remunerated for their input.
But in my disillusioned opinion, many newcomers don't fall into this category. Dog knows what they are looking for, but it ain't teaching.

Of all the reasons for someone to move abroad and earn a living there, the desire to explore a foreign culture is the least convincing to me. It is not fair to the host countries whose natives learn a Western language which most of them can never use while travelling around the world.

The idea that you should be rewarded financially for setting foot in an exotic place is baffling to me!
This reminds me of the strong propensity of some males to become gynecologists and obstreticians! Well, some women do prefer males doing this kind of job, but true professionals exercise this line of job with a professional conscience that precludes any personal interest in their patients - thus there is no bonus for peeping toms!
So, please, don't oversimplify either - not every backpacker is a bona fide teacher newbie!

[scot47]

Think of it this way. I want you to imagine that Jean Claude, a citizen of the Republic of France, decides to go to the USA or UK. He speaks no English but knows he is a "natural" at teaching. He decides to become a French Teacher in the UK/USA.

Would any college take a monoglot Frenchman with no training seriously as a potential teacher ?

How are these "packpackers" different from Jean Claude ?

[xnihil]

In my experience, Jean Claude would be a better teacher than John Smith. Here, in the US, we have suffered for too long under a substandard language teaching program where they use L1 to teach L2. I say, let Jean come over here and toss some students into his class. If he really is a "natural" it will be evident, if not, he'll quickly be sent back (packing).

[R]

Is there an element of people getting sick of constantly answering the same questions? In which case an idea might be to put a concise sticky at the top of each country's forum giving visa and qualification requirements for each country. I know there's Dave's Journals, but they're a bit flabby to be much use, and to be honest seem little different from regular browsing of the forums anyway.

I know this isn't the key issue being debated here but I think it may have a relevance to the perceived 'crabbiness'.

[Irish]

R wrote:

[MissMolly]

Ahhhhh - the old clown vs. the professional schmele.
Scot47 - I loved your Jean Claude comparision. I think you missed a key point, however. It isn't that Jean Cluade is so different than the backpackers, it's the system in place. Of course no college in the US or UK is going to hire him, but I bet a college in China would!
Why so much venom for backpackers in general, but none for the system that allows 19 year-old high - school gradutes to travel the world to "teach"?
Irish - I agree with you. There is no need to be jerks to the newbies, but surely they need to be enlightened about the realities of "teaching abroad."

[bnix]

Yes,johnslat,you are right.(most of the time you have good takes on subjects)And well,what the hell,we are all wrong sometimes(although there appear to be some posters on the forum who have troubles acknowledging they might be mistaken sometimes...such TREMENDOUS egos...and often with such little justification!)
Anyway,perhaps the use of "backpacker" to categorize ALL of the deadbeats who cannot teach and should not be in this field is unfortunate.What the hell,there may be some backpackers out there who are great teachers...although personally I have never met any.

The kind of people who should NOT be in this profession are (for example) the guy I overheard in Seoul one day(incidentally,he had no pack on...and actually had a tie on)..who said"What the f---?This English teaching thing is a joke.Just fake it,get your money and leave."

You do not have to necessarily call them "backpackers"(although I suppose we have come to use that term out of habit)....but anyone who knows anything about this business knows there are large numbers of "teachers" who should not be in this business...and the number is steadily increasing.Call them what you want to.."backpackers" or whatever...some of them even wear ties.

[denise]

I agree that the tone of some of the posts is very unpleasant. Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but somehow I doubt that the sorts of people (mentioned in a previous post) who will say, "What the f**k," and dismiss teaching as a joke/a quick way to earn money are not the sorts of people who will come to a forum like this seeking help. People who are that boorish probably do not think they need help. It is unfair to assume that all newcomers share those attitudes.

[bnix]

Denise,I agree with you that "not all newcomers share these attitudes"(I did not pretend to say that).Anyway,I agree with you.

However,I cannot agree with your inference that all people(even all newcomers) come to this forum to "seek help".Some do,true...but some are just trolls and some should not have tried to get into this business in the first place.Please notice I said "some"(but probably too many).

[denise]

One thing that I forgot to mention in my last post--it's not always the newcomers who do what some teachers consider a "disservice" to the industry. I've worked with several experienced, long-term teachers (lifers) who, to put it delicately, lack certain social skills (the main one being the ability to cope with reality without offending anyone and everyone). Yes, there are young people out there who are using the TEFL field primarily as a means to finance travel/drinking/whatever, but if they're not into teaching, they get into and out of it fairly quickly--less damage done than by those "lifers."

Fair enough--not everyone comes here seeking help. I have faith, though, that the people who come here with their questions have at least given some thought to what they're doing, and why they're doing it, which to me indicates a certain degree of maturity.

[Irish]

Miss Molly wrote:

[bnix]

Well,yes,I agree with you that all of the damage is not done by newcomers...there are some whackos in this business(call them lifers,if you want to) who have made a career(?) out of causing damage.Who causes more damage...the newbies(hate to tell you this,,,but all of them do not get out "Fast"unfortunately) or the incompetents who stay in it longtime?Well,you could get arguments on all sides on this one.Is this turning into an age based or newby versus-"Old pro" thread?

But yes,you are right(and quite obviously,I might add)..not all of the damage is caused by newbies.And I think(only my opinion) that a lot of the damage that may be caused by newbies is caused by lack of experience...not malice...although...of course, some is due to pure incompetence.Of course,there are also longtermers who also suffer from incompetence.Basically,there are just too many(Newbies and non-newbies,too) people in this business who should never have gone into it...they just did it as a last resort(or so they thought).

[Roger]

To whoever it may concern, and to xnihil,

in reply to your query as to what I mean when I say it is unfair that backpackers should get monetary rewards for being in an exotic place practising English with locals:
I think this is pretty evident, but your question shows how naive people from certain cultural backgrounds are. By 'naive" I don't mean to be haughty, just stating an opinion. I too am on occasion naive, and don't mind being called that.
But it is unfair to think others should pay for my travels. Note the English made "travels" out of the French word "travailler", which translates as "work", and has its origin in a word that denoted an instrument of torture.
Travelling is a privilege, and most of our learners envy us this privilege, especially in a country like China. I simply don't agree that people just pop up and pop out of sight like mosquitoes.
xnihil, you suggested Jean Claude would make an excellent French teacher simply for being a native French speaker. This is, in myhumble view, humbug. Native speakers don't make teachers. Most excellent teachers are not native speakers at all. Native speakers are an extra that few L2 learners ever see during their school years. I saw no native French teacher in my childhood (but do speak French as competently as English).
It is perhaps this attitude that irks me the most. These backpackers are riding on the wave of a language's artifical popularity. It takes local L2 teachers to prepare local students for the moment when they have to touch base with a native English speaker. Almost anywhere except in the Far East, native English speakers are rare or non-existent, and in my opinion, superfluous!
If a native English speaker happens to be a teacher, why not? But, please, commit yourself to a whole term, and possibly to several years in that country.
The French do NOT hire backpackers - check out an ALLIANCE FRANCAISE branch! They do hire non-native speakers, but these speakers must be professionals, and professionals stay put because they also care to obtain a release letter that assesses their teaching qualities!

Now when I read some adverts that offer TEFL certs - "the shortest distance between you and the world...", I see why some backpackers are labouring under illusions!