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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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 Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:55 pm Post subject: I'm a minority |
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This is courtesy of Guy on the GD forum.
Apparently non native speakers of English outnumber native speakers 3-1. What do you think the ratio is in Turkey?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7038031/site/newsweek/ |
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Faustino
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 601
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| It's going to get even worse (or better). Soon we won't have a leg to stand on when teaching grammar. Can you imagine presenting a grammar point, only for one of your students to turn round and say 'that's wrong 'cause that's not how 500 million Chinese people say it.' |
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whynotme
Joined: 07 Nov 2004
Posts: 728
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Faustino wrote: |
| It's going to get even worse (or better). Soon we won't have a leg to stand on when teaching grammar. Can you imagine presenting a grammar point, only for one of your students to turn round and say 'that's wrong 'cause that's not how 500 million Chinese people say it. ' |
look at the development of English ....Many experts divide English Language into 3 parts.... Old English(7th century-1100), Middle English(1100-1450/1500), Modern English (1500-now).Some books divide Modern English into two 1.Early modern (1500-1700) ,2.Late Modern (1700-now)....i divide it into 4 ... there is Recent English period....hahaha ...if you want to learn this period go to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7038031/site/newsweek/ |
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justme
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 1944
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Atlantic or Harper's, I can't remember which, did a fantastic article about global English about 4 years ago, and brought up some interesting questions about who owns English... I honestly don't believe it's us anymore, and to the extent that it's possible, I try to teach it this way. I mean, you have to teach them all the prescriptive stuff so they can pass their exams, but really, is it that bad if they say, 'I go to school for learn English?' For a majority of the students, English is a means to an end, and it's just one tool they need to achieve their goals. If their goals are to have perfect articles and prepositions, that's fine, but most of them need it simply to communicate with (by and large) non-native speakers who also aren't perfect speakers.
I hope EFL teaching (and testing!) starts to reflect English's place as a global language more. I mean, how can we claim we own it when there are more learners of English in China alone than there are native speakers (this according to the article I've referred to above-- numbers vary quite a lot depending on what you read)? |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I hope EFL teaching (and testing!) starts to reflect English's place as a global language more |
Just out of interest does your testing system reflect this. Are your tests(your institution's) more 'fill in the gap with the correct form of the verb' or are they more skills based? |
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Baba Alex
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 2411
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| justme wrote: |
| I mean, you have to teach them all the prescriptive stuff so they can pass their exams, but really, is it that bad if they say, 'I go to school for learn English?' |
Yes it is, 'for' and 'to' might be the same in Turkish, but in many other languages it isn't, and they will simply think the speaker is a bad speaker. We all know that in communication, if the speaker makes basic errors in his/her language useage this can create a negative image for the listener. Anyone who speaks a language can own it, they can intruduce new vocabulary from their mother tounge if they wish, they can even coin new terms or phrases, but a Laissez faire attitude towards the technical issues which only end up with everyone speaking strange bastardised dialects of English, like Americans. |
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whynotme
Joined: 07 Nov 2004
Posts: 728
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| justme wrote: |
| is it that bad if they say, 'I go to school for learn English? |
forget infinitives...it is a long story in every language
Captain Kirk in Star Trek started each episode "To boldly go......" |
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Faustino
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 601
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't mess with Captain Kirk. English had obviously evolved by that time. |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Captain Kirk in Star Trek started each episode "To boldly go......" |
Why is "to boldly go" always used as an example of a splint infinitive?
http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~susan/cyc/s/split.htm
| Quote: |
When Latin was a high-status language, grammarians used to try to force the rules of Latin onto English, a language with a rather different grammar. One such rule they invented was "do not split an infinitive" -- that is, do not put anything between the to and the rest of the verb. Their reasoning seems to be that, since it is impossible to split the single-word infinitive in Latin, one shouldn't split it in English, either. So, something like to boldly go is beyond the pale, according to these Latin grammarians.
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FGT
Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 762
Location: Turkey
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:14 am Post subject: |
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Similarly : thou shalt not end a sentence with a preposition.
Only because it doesn't happen in Latin.
Hence "Up with this I will not put.", Would we really say that? |
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ghost
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:20 am Post subject: there will always be jobs |
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| For the traditional custodians of English�the British and, more recently, the Americans�this means money. The demand for native English-speakers is so huge that there aren't enough to go around; China and the Middle East are starting to import English teachers from India. The average price of a four-day business-English course in London for a French executive runs 2,240 euro. Despite�or perhaps because of�all the new Englishes cropping up, it's the American and British versions that still carry prestige, particularly with tuition-paying parents. Australia and Britain, in particular, have invested heavily in branding themselves as destinations for learning English. More than 400 foreign English-teaching companies are trying to break into China. On a visit to Beijing last week, British Chancellor Gordon Brown said the Chinese thirst to acquire the language was "a huge opportunity for Britain," which already boasts a 1.3 billion pound English-teaching industry. Says Jenkins, "Owning English is very big |
And for that reason, the world is our oyster as far as teaching goes, because there are more jobs than people available to teach, especially in China, with its population soon to approach 1.5 billion!
One can see, in the quoted section, that China and the Middle East are importing English teachers from India, and this shows that there are not enough pure native speakers available.....despite the fact that many Indians are in fact native speakers of English, albeit with their charming accent and pronunciation.
The fact that there is an undersupply of qualified native speakers of English in many parts of the world, should be good for the future of EFL, but there are many other factors which come into play, such as English becoming de-facto second languages in certain foreign countries....with a gradual diminishing of the need for native speakers....but in our lifetimes, one feels that this will not happen. |
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justme
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 1944
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| Baba Alex wrote: |
| but a Laissez faire attitude towards the technical issues which only end up with everyone speaking strange bastardised dialects of English, like Americans. |
That's exactly the point-- everyone (including you wacky Brits) is speaking bastardized versions of the Queen's English. There are enough Americans spreading our diseased form of English throughout the world that you really could debate for hours whether it's wrong or right. You don't like 'have gotten laid' and I don't like 'have got laid.' Some people don't like 'get laid.' Some people don't get laid so they don't like anything. Tomato tomato potato potato.
As for myself, I feel like I have a lot of other more important things to do than be the custodian for English. Trying to teach critical thinking (I teach in Uni) and communicative competence are more important in my classroom than perfect prepositions and the 'th' sound. Watching TV and drawing faces on my hand are more important outside of my classroom than making sure my husband uses articles and infinitives correctly. I'd rather make sure he puts his beer bottles in the trash.
The same goes for the kinds of errors that all students make-- are they errors or a regular interlanguage? What's right or wrong in a communication situation isn't the same as what's right or wrong in an exam. If their errors are regular (as a lot of research suggests), then it seems possible that an international form, or dialect, of English could come into existence. Foreigners would use this dialect to communicate with one another (in fact, they already do), and native speakers would be the minority since most people wouldn't understand us when we speak what is normal English for us. Which means native speakers would have to learn the International dialect, because our mother-tongue dialect would be wrong in an international context. But as teachers, we're already masters of the screwed-up foreigner English dialect. I think I speak that more these days than regular bastardized American English. Teacher English makes American English look pretty good. At least American English has soul...
To answer your question, DMB, our courses are skills-based, and the exams become progressively more skills-based throughout the term. There are very few fill-in-the-correct-verb questions, and more complete- the-sentence-meaningfully questions. But the Turkish teachers don't like this, because then they can't use an answer key. Also, we're instructed to let small errors go and give points if the message is understandable and related to the prompt. I find that the Turkish teachers are way more Draconian than I am about enforcing accuracy in their exam marking, as well as in their classrooms. They still come to me as the authority for if something is right, but overall, they are protecting English from mistakes a lot more than I am... BTW, thanks for the article-- I got a 1 hour discussion and a 3 hour scanning lesson out of it... |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| I got a 1 hour discussion and a 3 hour scanning lesson out of it... |
Have you tried to use a thread from Dave's in class. Obviously you need super advanced intelligent students to follow the intellectual discussions we have here. |
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justme
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 1944
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Oh my god, that's so tempting! Especially now that the guy I share the class with is off for a few days while his wife has a baby, so I have to pull lessons out of my a*s.
The hyperactive little buggers do enjoy a challenge...  |
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Baba Alex
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 2411
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| justme wrote: |
| Baba Alex wrote: |
| but a Laissez faire attitude towards the technical issues which only end up with everyone speaking strange bastardised dialects of English, like Americans. |
That's exactly the point-- ... |
I mean that different regions will end up with different dialects. In addition, unless these countries dispense with their mothers tounges, then the majority of English Speaking art and media will still be in this classic dialect.
We all moderate our language to make ourselves understood, I certainly don't speak the way I do with my mates from back in Liverpool, with Londeners. When I speak with my (turkish) wife many English people don't understand us, due to our elaborate use of vocabulary. As a writer I relish in this synonym laiden language, and as a teacher I also like my students to reflect their intelligence when they speak. Again as each L1 interferes with the target, we will ofcourse find strange little quirks in our learners, but should we now simply dispense with everything that makes the Engliah language hard. What is more good, simple language for comunicate, or more good student what is working hard for understand non-regulars. Shall we get rid of Perfect tenses ? Esperanto anyone ?
Yes critical thinking is much more important than how to spell, Q or cue or queue, but surely analysing the nuances and differences between languages can be a part of that.
or something |
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