Job Discussion Forums

[leonie553]

I realise that I will probably get shot down in flames for starting this post but I'm curious, so here goes ....
I'm about to graduate from University at the end of this semester, so I'm about to become a newbie and enter the world of ELT. I've been reading through the posts in this forum on a regular basis as it's a good source of information about future jobs and teaching situations.
From direct observation, I have noticed that it's possible to draw knowledge and pertinent information from the wealth of experience that is present in the many posts on various topics. However, to lead into my question, I've also noticed that there is a certain factor or element present in a number of posts from certain experienced sources.
This factor or element I have named as the "Waldorf and Statler" effect after the 2 older gentlemen hecklers from the Muppet Show.
In this case, this effect is prevalent and particularly noticeable in the prolific postings of those 2 wise sages from Saudi Arabia. Whilst they produce many posts that contain a wealth of information and valuable advice, they can also produce other posts where they come out with "all guns blazing" at any woman/newbie/world traveller - teacher/backpacker, who comes out with an opinion or query that is contrary to their own beliefs or positions on certain topics or ideas.
So, I have been considering the following question.
"Does a long term career in ELT produce a rather jaded outlook to teaching and to life in general?"
OR
"Are these 2 particular gentlemen acting just like Waldorf and Statler and are just sitting back and having a bit of a go at everyone and anything?"

[selmo]

Very well said !
I have been teaching this ESL 4 years and you meet some real know it alls but don't be put off . The kids are great!

[johnslat]

Dear selmo,
Would I be one of those " two gentlemen " in Saudi Arabia that you refer to? If so, would be be so kind as to point out my posts where I have
" come out with "all guns blazing" at any woman/newbie/world traveller - teacher/backpacker, who comes out with an opinion or query that is contrary to their own beliefs or positions on certain topics or ideas. "
I'm always willing to profit from constructive criticism.
Regards,
John

[Brooks]

What I don`t care for in Japan are foreign teachers, who, although they have been in Japan for several years, think they know it all. AND they want to tell you. I tend to ignore them. It would be nice if they could at least pretend to be humble.

Brooks

[Irish]

Leonie:

Although John is a prolific Saudi poster and is an...er...elder statesman (was that delicate enough?), I don't think he's guilty of the Waldorf and Statler Effect (WSE). He knows I'm female but he's never "had a go" at me because of it. If this is about the old "good men" thread, I assure you that we were all joking and were clear on that. Any later references to John's "sexism" were understood as jokes by those who know him.

Yes, John sometimes disagrees with others but I think he's one of the more civil, sensible members here. Looking at his posts in the "Newbie" forum, I can't see that he's been anything but polite in his responses there. He doesn't bash people but he's not shy about asking someone to provide evidence to support a point. I don't always agree with him but I respect his style.

[elainenatal]

Dear JohnSlat

Oh, please!!!!
Has your short-term memory packed it in? You don't remember telling one lady to "get back into the kitchen where she belongs" and casting doubts on the sexuality of another lady poster?
come on - maybe you should use your last 19 days productively and revise your memory!

[selmo]

Dear John is that guilt slipping in there . I did not know who leonie was talking about! I just said that I find some people who have been at ESL a long time become very negative about things. They seem to have been everywhere done everything but are not very happy within themselves so critisize others .
I suppose its the loneliness of ........

[Irish]

Oh, geez, something tells me we're gonna have the Mod Squad in here if we're not careful.

I admit that I don't read all of John's posts. However, I vaguely recall the kitchen comment (or something similar). I still hold that this was a joke and that the person he was addressing knew that.

Casting aspersions on a female poster's sexuality? Okay, I'm lost on that one. When? Where? Who? Why wasn't he raked over the coals at the time?

Selmo, I think John intended his message for Leonie. As for the description in the original message--come on, how many older guys working in Saudi are prolific posters around here? Two, by my count, but maybe that depends on one's definition of prolific.

But we don't have to guess. It's easy (albeit time consuming) to browse through his previous posts and come to our own conclusions.

[johnslat]

Dear elainenatal,
Hmm, how can I put this without seeming to have blazing guns? I can't say I recall the " casting doubt upon the sexuality ( or do you mean sex/gender ) of another lady poster ", but I certainly recall my ironic joking with - I believe it was - zakiah25?
irony: 2 a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c : an ironic expression or utterance. "
I'm more than a little flabbergasted that you apparently took all that rot seriously - but why don't we ask zakiah ( I'm pretty sure it was her ) how she took it? It was, I assure you, meant as a parody of the " redneck " anti-woman position. But then, some pople took Swift's " A Modest Proposal " seriously, too.
Dear selmo,
" . . is that guilt slipping in there? "
Nope, mainly because I plead " Not guilty ". But when your description reads:
" In this case, this effect is prevalent and particularly noticeable in the prolific postings of those 2 wise sages from Saudi Arabia. "
Well, if you'll go to the Memberlist, you'll see that there are ONLY two specific people who could fit that description - scot47 and myself. So, once again, I'd like to ask you to please point out any/some of these specific posts where my " guns were blazing ".
Regards,
John

[johnslat]

Ooops, Irish is right - I meant the original poster, leonie553, not you selmo. So, let me ask leonie553 to please point to some specific posts that support the charge.
Regards,
John

[Irish]

Here's what I don't get...

From time to time, people have posted messages about certain behavior on this forum. Usually, these posts have been very general, identifying certain attitudes and actions but not naming specific members. I recall one thread way back in the mists of time that was addressed to a particular person. It wasn't too harsh but the intent was clear: the poster wanted to call attention to this individual's behavior. However, if someone wants to call another person out on his/her behavior, this is usually done at the time of the "offense."

This one confuses me. I understand not wanting to name specific individuals, but the information provided makes them identifiable to any regular poster on these boards. If the intent was to denounce certain behavior without singling out certain people, why include that info? If the intent was to single out particular people, why not name them?

So what's the point of this thread? This is an honest question. What did the original poster hope to accomplish by taking this approach?

[Wolf]

I remember reading johnslat's posts about the "get in the kitchen" thing. He was being ironic. He's ever so helpfully defined irony - how many times now? I seriously don't see why we should choose him of all people as a bastion of chauvenism. Or of losing his cool and flaming people (if that's what the guns blazing things mean. It doesn't sound like foreign nationals can own firearms in the KSA.)

Scot47 doesn't like backpackers with stupid questions. Or ethnocentricism. But he has made a lot of clear headed (albieit short) posts well worth reading. Also, he's been EFLing for, oh, longer than I've been alive, and I for one am happy to share this forum with him.

I mean, we all have quirks. But it seems that they both have enjoyed their jobs (even if johnsalt seems to be happily "retiring")

But the question at the end is valid. There are people that EFL for too long. Or at least it seems so to me. These people usually don't like their jobs. There are lots of people in the world who don't like their jobs but stick with them - maybe it's because it's too hard to change. Those are the real grouches that you don't want to end up working with.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Dear leonie553:

Your question: "Does a long term career in ELT produce a rather jaded outlook to teaching and to life in general?"

An honest answer: it might. it might not.

There's probably a certain burn-out aspect inherent in every job. Once you've seen it 'all' and done it 'all' ...

Long-term EFL survivors are a special breed. You'll understand this better after you've spent a decade in this business.

And let's be honest here. There are so many factors that affect each of us while we are sitting at the keyboard:

our physical environment
the size of our paycheques
the people we are forced to work with
the incompetent DOS breathing down our neck
our sobriety
the state of our social & romantic relationships at any given moment
what side of the bed we got up on
the weather
and so forth and so on...

We're all human. What and how we write is nothing more than a reflection of the combination of factors mentioned above.

We all have our good days and our bad days. Singling out one or two posters for special armchair psychoanalysis isn't the answer.

As for the two gentlemen from Saudi Arabia: I can't think of anyone on the planet I'd rather sit down with over tea and a biscuit.


Yours truly,
kENt

[Irish]

Well, now that the other gentleman has been named...

Much has been said about/to scot47 regarding his posts so I won't bother to defend or attack him. Wolf made some good points above. We should also note that scot47 has been very honest about what he thinks and why he thinks that way. I'm not saying that he's right or wrong, only that he's a man of strong convictions who isn't afraid to tell the truth as he sees it. Whether or not we like his manner doesn't seem to matter to him. Indeed, I suspect we sometimes take him far more seriously than he takes himself.

Hey, I'm a soon-to-be newbie too and I've disagreed with him. It didn't hurt me any.

[johnslat]

Dear keNt,
" As for the two gentlemen from Saudi Arabia: I can't think of anyone on the planet I'd rather sit down with over tea and a biscuit. "
Really? Does that include, say, Britney Spears, Sharon Stone, Christy Turlington and Colette Pechekhonova? If so, you're one weird guy. However, since it's TEA and a biscuit, you may have made the right choice, seeing as both of us geezers are teetotalers. But one thing I'm thankful for is that " burn-out " has never been something I've worried about. I simply enjoy teaching way too much, even after all these years. I'm not " retiring " when I return to the States ( I'm not a retiring kind of guy ); nope, I want to keep teaching till I drop.
Regards,
John