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H5N1
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 80
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 Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: Teacher Deportations & Work Permits |
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Seven teachers at a major bransh in Ho Chi Minh city were given the sack a couple of days ago. Officials came to the school and ask to see work permit papers.
Other schools are being checked also.
People that come here should do or bring the necesarry paperwork. |
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Proffeshnial Teachman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Yes, it's true. Teachers are being shedded from my school and various others - sacked outright or sent up to Hanoi until this farce blows over.
I'm leaving. Sick of the pungent BS that is in the air at the moment. First tax and now this rubbish. Pay 500 USD for the privalledge of working in Vietnam? - no thanks!
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sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Proffeshnial Teachman -
Just out of curiousity, can you tell us where you are headed?
Do most people have similar plans to abandon Vietnam? |
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Snaff
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| Proffeshnial Teachman wrote: |
| I'm leaving. Sick of the pungent BS that is in the air at the moment. First tax and now this rubbish. Pay 500 USD for the privalledge of working in Vietnam? - no thanks! |
I have paid taxes in other countries and understand the concept of paying taxes, even as a foreigner.
However....
Because of the dual pricing (and higher) for us foreigners,
I don't like the idea of dual prices + paying taxes.
It's a double whammy. |
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Proffeshnial Teachman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Sure. I'm heading back home for a while until this evaporates like the crackdown they had on rear view mirrors a while back......
I may be back but who knows? Vietnam is very good for the money but not so hot on other factors - opening times, REAL leisure activities, freedom of speech etc. I don't mind not having these things as I'm lucky enough to come from a country that has them, but after 3 years here I think it's time for me to go.  |
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sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:19 am Post subject: |
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like the crackdown they had on rear view mirrors a while back......
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Crackdown on rear view mirrors?! What was that all about?? Having them or not having them?? Bizarre!  |
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mrfate
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: |
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Because of the dual pricing (and higher) for us foreigners,
I don't like the idea of dual prices + paying taxes.
It's a double whammy. |
I just wrote a huge rant on this topic, but it got deleted somehow...
Basically it wrote:
Taxes go to the government. The governement run organisations do not charge Dual Pricing. (One of the only exceptions these days is the boat to VT)
The extra money from Dual Prices go to the average person on the street.
Consider the extra 50cents or dollar that you have to pay, as your price for taking advantage of the fact that you can speak English as a native language. Espeically when you are getting paid 15$-17$ dollars an hour to do it! Your Vietnamese teaching staff are often more qualified than you are and only recieve $2 an hour!
Remember you are earning more than a vietnamese family does in a year. So unless you are doing volunteer work or giving back to the community (no - getting paid heaps to teach english is not giving back) don't complain about the slight increase in price. If you don't know what the local price is, don't expect to pay it. It is a barganing culture!
I'm just so sick of how much people complain in this country especially when they have it so good! I've always found people who are negative attract negativity. I'm always positive and I've always found Vietnamese people to be friends and accomodating... And if not, well... it's not a relfection of all the people.
Cheers! |
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darcypog
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 5
Location: Ho Chi Minh City
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| I'm just so sick of how much people complain in this country especially when they have it so good! I've always found people who are negative attract negativity. I'm always positive and I've always found Vietnamese people to be friends and accomodating... And if not, well... it's not a relfection of all the people |
I'm with you on that one. I am amazed at the number of people that are negative here and say they hate Vietnamese and Vietnam. I haven't met many foreigners that have no complaints. I have many Vietnamese friends and live with two vietnamese and they are by far some of the nicest people I have ever met.
Find somewhere that makes you happy. For me that's here. |
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Proffeshnial Teachman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| I'm just so sick of how much people complain in this country especially when they have it so good! I've always found people who are negative attract negativity. I'm always positive and I've always found Vietnamese people to be friends and accomodating... And if not, well... it's not a relfection of all the people. |
I agree about the people, friendly and helpful.
I agree about dual pricing as well. If I'm getting ripped off I walk away with no anger but I won't part with any cash and I'll try elsewhere.
I disagree about complaining though. Why shouldn't I complain? There is so much about Vietnam that is dreadful but this need not be the case. I will draw attention to it not because it makes me feel better but because it could easily be rectified for the benefit of all. Unlike the majority of the locals I have not been brought up in a climate of fear or retribution by the state. I'm not on a crusade to save Vietnam though. I just want to get paid for doing a job well and I see an erosion in my earnings for no benefit to me or anyone else in this city. |
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Snaff
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| mrfate wrote: |
| Consider the extra 50cents or dollar that you have to pay, as your price for taking advantage of the fact that you can speak English as a native language. Espeically when you are getting paid 15$-17$ dollars an hour to do it! Your Vietnamese teaching staff are often more qualified than you are and only recieve $2 an hour! |
I don't understand your argument.
You sound as if you believe in complete economic equality. A distribution of wealth of some sort, but only from citizens of particular nationalities.
Should a Vietnamese businessman who earns above the average per capita income pay dual prices, because he makes more money than the average Vietnamese family?
How are they more qualified than me? Did they study Education and EFL at in a native speaking uni. in a native speaking country? I doubt it.
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you are earning more than a vietnamese family does in a year. So unless you are doing volunteer work or giving back to the community (no - getting paid heaps to teach english is not giving back)
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I've never met anyone making heaps here - unless they were previously working as a cashier at 7-11. No complaints, as I'm quite content. I just don't think it's "heaps."
I thought teaching was doing a job that is providing something back to the community. You don't think so?
I don't understand this either. When someone is employed, pays taxes, and puts their net income back into the economy by using services and purchasing products in the the local community they are helping everybody. And, the foriegners here are here, because they are needed - there is a demand for them.
This is no different than in almost every country in the world - it's called economic interdependence, in a globalized economy.
Should foreigners that go to the U.S. or UK, and work and pay taxes, pay duel prices?
I don't think they should.
But the points you noted here, you apparently believe they ought to. |
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mrfate
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:16 am Post subject: And here we go again.... |
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| You sound as if you believe in complete economic equality. A distribution of wealth of some sort, but only from citizens of particular nationalities. Should a Vietnamese businessman who earns above the average per capita income pay dual prices, because he makes more money than the average Vietnamese family? |
Well seeing as above average is maybe $10,000 a year, that's still falls quite short of most teacher's incomes. And remember what I was saying about Vietnam being a bargaining culture? There is almost never a fixed price. Alot of businesses in the western world have duel prices. We are usually just accustomed to retail outlets, which always set their prices. (But u know even they can be bargained if you know how) So as I said before dual prices exist for everyone in reality. Not just expats.
I don't believe in complete economic equality, I just believe in giving a little back because even if you are getting ripped off, you are still paying usually a 10th of what you would in your own country. (Are you getting a 10th of the amount of pay that you normally get in your own country?)
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| How are they more qualified than me? Did they study Education and EFL at in a native speaking uni. in a native speaking country? I doubt it. |
Maybe not you personally, but all the teachers I work with have a BA in English Education at least, and ongoing training to keep them up with the latest teaching methods. I'd say that qualifies them more than most teachers who have random BA's or other non-english/education degrees. Unfortunetly some of them don't have the resources to study in another country, it's shame they suffer because of it.
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| I've never met anyone making heaps here - unless they were previously working as a cashier at 7-11. No complaints, as I'm quite content. I just don't think it's "heaps." I thought teaching was doing a job that is providing something back to the community. You don't think so? |
Have you seen salaries for school teachers in places like Aus, UK and US? Any idea the difference of how much money you can save comparably? Of course it doesn't match up with working in the Middle-east or maybe Korea... but weigh it up... The conditions are harsh in those countries. You deserve all the pay you can get!
Educating does put something back into the community. Are you teaching at a local school? Or maybe volunteering? Or one of the schools that most Vietnamese families wish they could send their children. We are educating the rich and upper-middle class.
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| I don't understand this either. When someone is employed, pays taxes, and puts their net income back into the economy by using services and purchasing products in the the local community they are helping everybody. And, the foriegners here are here, because they are needed - there is a demand for them. |
I understand the demand, and I understand the need for us to be here, but you have to be realistic how the government uses it money, and also how small our contribution is to day to day life.
One day your argument will be true and I'll be up there protesting with you. But until then don't go around getting ripped off, but also don't expect to pay the same as someone who is living on 5,000vnd a day. |
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Proffeshnial Teachman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: Re: And here we go again.... |
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| mrfate wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You sound as if you believe in complete economic equality. A distribution of wealth of some sort, but only from citizens of particular nationalities. Should a Vietnamese businessman who earns above the average per capita income pay dual prices, because he makes more money than the average Vietnamese family? |
Well seeing as above average is maybe $10,000 a year, that's still falls quite short of most teacher's incomes. And remember what I was saying about Vietnam being a bargaining culture? There is almost never a fixed price. Alot of businesses in the western world have duel prices. We are usually just accustomed to retail outlets, which always set their prices. (But u know even they can be bargained if you know how) So as I said before dual prices exist for everyone in reality. Not just expats.
I don't believe in complete economic equality, I just believe in giving a little back because even if you are getting ripped off, you are still paying usually a 10th of what you would in your own country. (Are you getting a 10th of the amount of pay that you normally get in your own country?)
| Quote: |
| How are they more qualified than me? Did they study Education and EFL at in a native speaking uni. in a native speaking country? I doubt it. |
Maybe not you personally, but all the teachers I work with have a BA in English Education at least, and ongoing training to keep them up with the latest teaching methods. I'd say that qualifies them more than most teachers who have random BA's or other non-english/education degrees. Unfortunetly some of them don't have the resources to study in another country, it's shame they suffer because of it.
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| I've never met anyone making heaps here - unless they were previously working as a cashier at 7-11. No complaints, as I'm quite content. I just don't think it's "heaps." I thought teaching was doing a job that is providing something back to the community. You don't think so? |
Have you seen salaries for school teachers in places like Aus, UK and US? Any idea the difference of how much money you can save comparably? Of course it doesn't match up with working in the Middle-east or maybe Korea... but weigh it up... The conditions are harsh in those countries. You deserve all the pay you can get!
Educating does put something back into the community. Are you teaching at a local school? Or maybe volunteering? Or one of the schools that most Vietnamese families wish they could send their children. We are educating the rich and upper-middle class.
| Quote: |
| I don't understand this either. When someone is employed, pays taxes, and puts their net income back into the economy by using services and purchasing products in the the local community they are helping everybody. And, the foriegners here are here, because they are needed - there is a demand for them. |
I understand the demand, and I understand the need for us to be here, but you have to be realistic how the government uses it money, and also how small our contribution is to day to day life.
One day your argument will be true and I'll be up there protesting with you. But until then don't go around getting ripped off, but also don't expect to pay the same as someone who is living on 5,000vnd a day. |
I must admit I admire your generosity mrfate.
However I don't like paying taxes when I get nothing, NOTHING in return, other than the nice warm feeling of helping someone important in Hanoi.
I dislike paying over the odds for something. This is something I won't do and if that is the case I just walk away, which is exactly what the locals do but they tend to sneer bitterly as well.
I also don't like being made to feel like human scum in a country where I do my best to educate the usually willing students. I do a good job as I'm sure all the other posters do on here. I put in 100% and this is acknowledged by both my employer and the students. However,
no work permit = criminal at the moment and I'm not buying into this 'all for a good cause' nonsense. It's not about that, it's about extorting money from schools and the teachers who work in them.
The work permit issue is about pettiness and jealousy, the driving need to feel important and extract cash from the vulnerable, nothing more. |
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Porlestone
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 95
Location: Asia
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| mrfate wrote: |
Your Vietnamese teaching staff are often more qualified than you are and only recieve $2 an hour!
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Lighten up (and drop the rhetoric), $2 an hour is real good money here for native Vietnamese.
mrfate, who do you think the government is in vietnam? the people, they are one and the same. |
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mrfate
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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Lighten up (and drop the rhetoric), $2 an hour is real good money here for native Vietnamese.
mrfate, who do you think the government is in vietnam? the people, they are one and the same. |
If you say that, then you know nothing of how the country runs... there could not be a bigger enough gap between the government and the people... (It's really no different from most countries in the world)
And sure $2 is a great wage.... so they should be charged the same prices as we get charged... wow.. if I was them... i could work an hour for a burger...
Hey if I worked 2 hours I could get one for my friend too!
Thats cinical as #@$... but hey... it's reality... really... That is a really uneducated comment for someone to post in a forum... or if you are on the scale of experiencing too much and being jaded... well... you know that sign that vietnam people make when they don't know something... Move on....
Seriously... I have a good perception of most the types of people that live in Vietnam... and maybe there's just some that I don't have a lot of time for...
Cheers! |
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mrfate
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| However I don't like paying taxes when I get nothing, NOTHING in return, other than the nice warm feeling of helping someone important in Hanoi. I dislike paying over the odds for something. This is something I won't do and if that is the case I just walk away, which is exactly what the locals do but they tend to sneer bitterly as well. |
I guess the return is the right to work in the country... There are many places in the world where you just don't have to right... even if you want to pay taxes... ok.. in an economic world you have to weigh it up... But really... how much are you getting taxed? Is it over 30% like most countries? (I actually enjoy the fact I pay taxes because I've never had to speak to a policeman my whole time here - that's worth a mint!)
Ok... guys... I don't pay foreigner prices.. it's an advantage of intergrating. (No that doesn't mean marriage) Again I say... it's a bargaining culture... If you don't get the price you want... go... or hang around long enough outside till the give you the correct price... It's all part of the game... yes? (Have you been to India? Wow... that makes Vietnam look like a walk in the park!)
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also don't like being made to feel like human scum in a country where I do my best to educate the usually willing students. I do a good job as I'm sure all the other posters do on here. I put in 100% and this is acknowledged by both my employer and the students. However,
no work permit = criminal at the moment and I'm not buying into this 'all for a good cause' nonsense. It's not about that, it's about extorting money from schools and the teachers who work in them. |
Does requesting the same creditals that you would be requested in your home town to teach english make you feel like human scum? Don't get me wrongl... some of the best teachers I know are "unqualified", so to speak.
Really, Vietnam is just falling into place with most other countries (esp. Asian Countries) when it comes to their requirements for work permit regarding legal teaching of English. You accept it when you enter a country. Just because VN is getting savvy with the times, doesn't make them extortists!
Everyone has had a good old time with the relaxed laws here in Vietnam, so... the good ol days are over. By the way have you ever tried to negotiate with an Vietnamese Offical before? It's an experience...
I really don't understand your concept of feeling like scum. Apart from the shared people in the world who have all the experience and success in the world but not the correct qualifications, well I can understand that...
This has been going on for 2 years now... who's to say that it won't go on for another 2? Really, the people you have to worry about is your school's admin. They are the ones who are choosing to hide you or declaring.
Cheers! |
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