Job Discussion Forums

[Susie]

This isn't about teaching, just about a teacher going and coming at a moment in Hong Kong.

Is it safer to travel by shuttle bus or public light bus?

There is a residential bus that transports ticket holders from "home" to the KCR.

The back of the seats are high, up to the top of the average HKer's head.

I was travelling home late the other night, I usually try to get the public light (that serves my "home" route) bus because I sense that passengers on the residential bus are aggressive, impatient, and stressed. Anyway the last minibus had departed so it was a taxi or the residential bus.

In retrospect I made a mistake by choosing the residential bus because I was minding my own business reading my map and then I was asked by a female stranger whether I had any bus tickets. I said yes. Then she asked if she could buy one. I told her I wasn't selling any.

I carried on reading my map and it touched the woman sitting in front's hair ever so lightly (she was with her husband). Initially I hadn't noticed but then, without saying a word to me in Cantonese or English, she flicked my map with her finger and thumb, tapped it, before grabbing it, tearing a hand-sized chunk out of it before some how ripping it out of my hand and throwing it together with the pieces on the floor at her feet in front of her. It all happened within a few seconds before I had time to react.

I have to say I was quite shaken, but I asked her if I could have my map back please. She ignored me, so did the man sitting beside her (her husband). The woman, who had been sitting beside me and had asked me to sell a ticket, fled. A couple sitting across the aisle from me said something in Cantonese to the man sitting beside the woman who had got my map, and that husband replied briefly and calmly. I had to pick my map up off the floor at her feet.

Well I had to pick up the small pieces of my map after the aggressive woman and her husband got off the bus. I wanted to know where they lived to report them to the management office. Well, to my amazement they are my neighbours, living right next door, because I watched the husband collect his mail with the next door neighbour's number on it. I didn't recognise them, I rarely see them, but they may have seen stick-out-like-a-sore-thumb-me before.

Then we travelled up in the lift together and I asked her if she had a problem, (what I meant to ask was, Why did you react like that?). She spoke in Cantonese, mm sik yin man (I don't speak English) lei gong chung man? So I asked her in Mandarin, Ni you wenti ma? She spoke in Cantonese to the effect that I have the problem and no doubt some other abusive meanings.

Then I asked her if I had offended her in some way. She spoke more Cantonese which I couldn't make out. Her husband ignored the whole thing, apart from answering the couple's question and giving me a few dagger looks) like it was a beautiful sunny day by the sea. He opened their flat door, when in and closed it.

Well of course I wrote a letter to management, about the woman's aggressive, hostile and provocative behaviour.

Then the day before, some boys on a playing pitch with a high fence, spotted the foreigner, took aim, and hit me on the leg with the ball. Did I burst their ball? No. I reported it to management!

Earlier, before being hit by the ball, a public light bus (different one from the one on the "home" route) driver ignored my verbal Mandarin request to get off the bus, even when I pressed the bell he didn't stop the bus. He stopped it at the next stop, not because I wanted off but because some Hong Kong people wanted on and off. I asked a passenger to ask the driver why he didn't let me off at the previous stop. He said I didn't let him know that I wanted off. I countered. Then he said I pressed the bell "too late". When is "too late"? Did I smash up the bus? No. I reported him to the Transport Department!

Why did she tear up my map?

[Joachim]

Susie:

1) Take taxis. Always

2) Move to HK Island, or at least Lamma

3) Don't attempt to address HK Chinese people in Mandarin, generally speaking English is their second language, Mandarin (or Putonghua) third - and many take offence at being mistaken for Mainlanders.


Then you shouldn't have these problems anymore!

[guilao]

I think i remember someone telling me that some Cantonese have taboo regarding touching hair. Or is that in Thailand? I don't know...but you inspire me to brush up on Canto-slang before I head back to HK in a couple of weeks.

On my first trip their I remember the tram drivers were about as nice as the driver you encountered. Also, as Joachim noted, there seems to be a resistance to speaking Mandarin amongst HeungGongYan...I remember getting really irritated asking station personal at Tungchung �厕所在哪儿？� When someone pretends they don't remember something they surely asked countless times in grade school, it feels insulting.

[surrealia]

Wow! That's a pretty shocking story. I understand that the woman might have been offended by you accidentally touching her hair or speaking Mandarin, but I think she's the one in the wrong for ripping up your map. I think you did the right thing by writing a letter, even though not much might come out of that.

Just wondering...do things like this happen often in Hong Kong? Joachim? Guilao?

[Susie]

I know you asked the other two posters whether things like this happen often in Hong Kong.

The stories outlined above happened to me personally. Let me tell you what happened to four other foreigners who were in the same module as me at a local university here in Hong Kong.

I was told about this and I observed it first hand. As a student on my drama module, there were 5 foreigners altogether. The other four worked together in pairs and I worked with a local Hong Kong student, the rest of the students were HKers and they worked together. The lecutrer was from England and he got on well with the other foreigners who were his compatriots. He would often sit near them and he passed around a piece of paper and told us to sign up in pairs for our 15-minute assessment performance. Of course the four foreigners were 1st and 2nd on the list, I was 6th.

Anyway, some of the HK students decided to change the order of the performance because they didn't think it was fair that the four foreigners should be allowed to go 1st and 2nd, and the HKers didn't want to accept going second last and last.

So the four Hkers who were last on the list, trotted up to the lecture, helpfully offering to type up the order list for him. He naively agreed. The HKers re-ordered the list so that the four foreigners were now second last and last, and the HKers were 1st and 2nd! My position remained the same because my partner was a HKer!

One of the foreigners mentioned this to me, when I looked at the typed up list and observed the order of the performances, I found that what the foreigner had told me was true. The foreigners decided not to challenge the changes and just went in the order of the new altered typed-up list.

My point is that the local HKers involved in this incident are political and set the stage for confrontation. Whether you challenge them or not / or how you respond is up to you, but they'll set you up for a wrong-footing.

I believe the aggressive woman on the bus wanted to provoke me into a reflex action that would have given her a chance to show me up as a wrong-doer. Luckily, at that moment, I didn't fall into her trap.

[guilao]

Susie summed it up, sorta: "I believe the aggressive woman on the bus wanted to provoke me into a reflex action that would have given her a chance to show me up as a wrong-doer. Luckily, at that moment, I didn't fall into her trap."

One day in an MRT station, I became exasperated when the doors closed on a train I was in a rush to board. I was cursing to myself and noone in particular, but those around me looked at me like I was insulting their ancestors. Made a note to self that day: don't show negative emotions to anybody. Everbody's watching, prepared to pass judgement on the Foreign Devil.

On the next day, I was shoved by an old woman getting onto a tram, which surprised me because until the tram arrived we were waiting with others in a polite queue. She must been 4-foot something . . . me over 6 feet with a cowboy hat and full beard at the time. I knew that if I showed anger that would reinforce the stereotype of the Ugly American, so I just laughed and let her pass.

I can't speak for the map-tearing crazy lady, but Susie's public transit experience correlates with mine. I suspect it's a big taboo to exhibit frustration or anger around Chinese people. Maybe the initial bumping into her head was misconstrued. Or maybe she already knew you were neighbors and had some sort of ax to grind.

For some locals, acts of aggression do translate into a test for foreigners. As foreigners, we should see it as a test of our character and realize that our actions affect the perception of Westerners. As an American, I am always conscious of the virtual target tattooed on my forehead.

In defense of HK'ers, the most common aggressiveness is akin to that of NYC. There is nothing personal about it; in a fast-paced city driven by the lion-guarded bankers this is par for the course. Sit down and relax at some of the wonderful family restaurants there, and you'll find wonderful hospitality that contrasts with what you experience on the streets. Also, it's a lot different outside of Kowloon and HK Island; take the ferry to Mui Wo, for instance, and you'll still find smiling villagers ambling on bicycles with training wheels. The aggression is an urban symptom, I'm sure of it.

As to your congenial neighbors, the opportunities for getting even are within your sights . . . I suggest you lock and load, metaphorically speaking!

[Horizontal Hero]

Don't make the mistake of judging a place by its nastiest residents. Most HK people are not aggressive - quite the opposite in fact. There is an old Hindu proverb: when you see the tiger on the trail, move out of the way. Works nine times out of ten, I find. The other ten per cent of the time you have to stand and return a bit of aggression. But most of the time aggression won't do anything to change an A-hole's attitude. You just do it for yourself.

Speaking of A-holes, I'm sure you all know about this character, Bus Uncle. Nearly 2 million peole have downloaded this 5 min clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSHziqJWYcM


And here's something that happened to me a while back. I posted it on the China off-topic forum. Makes Bus Uncle look like a nice guy.

[Roger]

This is one of the reasons why I give Hongkongers the thumbs-down. IT's a boorish crowd of upstarts, conceited parochials who believe Hong Kong is the centre of Asia if not the world.
I had a very good landlady in HK and I regret knowing that she was booted out of a residential building that has been transformed into a house with new vocations.
I am not saying the majority are uncouth and racist but it is true that for an urban place of HK's size it's got way too many unfriendly residents.

Maybe the absence of a foreign - colonial - administration removes a common adversary (the Brits never were the enemy of the Hong Kong natives but they were of course the colonials) - now everyone "loves the Motherland of CHina" and hates their neighbours (Indians because "they smell", Indonesians or Filippinas because "they make such a noise", whites because "they cost us too much money as NETs").

But basically it's probably not even xenophobia per se; Chinese seldom learn how to cope with adversities in life: they swallow their anger if they feel you are superior, and they go crazy if they feel you have tried to climb over them. There is so much frustration and pressure on most of them they may crack in a bus or the MTR and you stand only a chance at getting fairness if you are a fellow Cantonese.

[Susie]

I really wish there were some psychologists to analyse these incidents. I desperately want to understand the psychology behind the people involved in these stories (me included).

Having watched "bus uncle" (is it media entertainment or based on real fact, or both?), by comparison, I guess I got away lightly with just a map torn into pieces.

As for the personal insults to your wife by the "man" in the queue/on the bus, I think that was most unfortunate and I'm glad she didn't fall into his "trap".

[poof]

Sounds like you had some bad luck. The woman clearly has a personality problem, so I wouldn't let her get to you anymore. Maybe it sometimes seems like the world is against you - or at least every citizen in Hong Kong.

I agree that it doesn't work to speak Mandarin to anyone in Hong Kong - often totally useless as a Westerner. I managed to learn enough Cantonese to make a complaint when a woman clipping her nails on a HK-China boat managed to clip her nail so that it flew over the back of the seat and into my noodles. I leaned over the seat, waving her piece of nail and explaining what had happened. The other passengers could hear my complaint and the woman was seemingly so embarrassed that she went into a feigned sleep for the rest of the journey.

So whether it's map aggravation, or clipped nail aggravation, everyone of every nationality has their grievances... Stay calm and don't fight back on an uneven field. Strike only when you're assured to win.

I also never had the 'management' to sort things out for me.

[buddhaboyjp]

Hmmmmm. Thinking...................

I live in Japan, and have not quite experienced that, but we do have discrimination and other cultural problems here (just go to the Japan forum on that!).

Just imagine for a moment when they go to your country to visit or live.
I KNOW for a fact they go through just the same situations, if not worse in some ways. I might by discriminated here and in lawful ways, but no one has ever spit on me nor become too aggressive physically.
No crosses burning in my front yard.

[Horizontal Hero]

I agree. HKers aren't so bad. At least they are no where near as rabidly nationalistic as mainlanders, a real saving grace IMHO.

[dragon777]

If someone had called my wife a 'Hooker I would of belted them'. Even in my Fathers time this would of happened. Your wife must think you are a really a "Poofter" pal. I would never have put up with this insult! You are definetly a different time zone from me.

[Horizontal Hero]

Good to see you think that physical violence is an appropriate response to verbal insult. Yeah, that would have righted the wrong, for sure. Would have proved my manhood to my missus, and taught that little ch*nk good and proper.

Yes, we are in a different zone altogether... pal. Maybe you should get out of the '50s, and stop watching re-runs of Top Gun. My wife was totally supportive of what I did, and agreed that hitting a Chinese guy who is a foot shorter and 30 kgs lighter than me would have done nothing but reinforce the Chinese belief that foreigners are "barbarians".

And as for your "poof" comment, I suggest you get a bit of counseling on that. I think there is a bit of Freudian transference happening here, just quietly� pal. Unconsciously you want me, the archetypal metrosexual modern male, able to withhold his inate aggression in almost inhumanly disciplined ways, who doesn't lash out like a wounded animal when threatened. I represent all that you are not: the feminine, the soft, the new age sensitive man that you have repressed for far too long. But denial is not good for you... pal. It's better to embrace the shadow.

But I find you very attractive too, I have to admit. So big and strong and all manly and stuff. Let's get it on. PM me for all the action. I�ll get the beer, you bring the John Wayne movies.

[Smoog]

To everyone out there who thinks the locals have an axe to grind with whitey, I'd suggest that you do a bit of ant-watching one day.

For the first few months I was here, after the usual culture-shock blahblahblah, I was getting increasingly annoyed, stressed and paranoid about the seemingly delibrate attempts by the locals to go out of their way to antagonise me.

Especially them being blindingly oblivious to where I was walking. Before you think I'm being egocentric here, I'm specifically talking about times I was carrying large objects (eg. suitcases, several bags of groceries, computer, stereo system - not all at once of course). In NZ, if you saw someone struggling along carrying several items, you would instinctively move out of their way to let them pass. It's the natural polite thing to do.
Not so here. They will still walk straight towards you, seemingly unaware the load you're struggling under or, if they do, not caring. The expectation appears that you should be the one letting them pass.
I even had them still using their umbrellas while walking under street awnings, forcing me, Mr. Umbrellaless to walk out in the rain and get a good soaking.


Now this was, as I mentioned above, starting to really get on my *beep*. It really did feel like they were showing their dislike of whitey here.
I'm not the sort of person to barrel someone over - also I was a bit worried that if I did, they might start yelling in Canto that I'd attacked them and I would find myself in the middle of an ugly crowd (actually living as I was at the time in Mongkok I always found myself in the middle of an ugly crowd).

Just as I was on the verge of yelling at someone who had again apparently gone out of their way to annoy me, I took a step back and did what I suggest you lot to do:
I sat in a cafe and watched the crowds of locals wandering pass.

And guess what?

They do that to each other as well. They don't let anyone pass, no matter how old or encumbered they are. Why? Well maybe it might be something cultural, but I think a lot of it is to do with how many bloody people there are here. It takes ages to push your way down Nathan rd peak time, so imagine how long it'd take if you paused constantly to let someone else pass.

All this pushing, shoving, ignoring, it's all part of living in a densely populated city. Unfortunately it seems politeness and empathy are two of the first things to go.

Couple of recent examples:
On Saturday I was privileged to watch a heavily pregnant woman get onto the MTR with me and stand the entire 3 stops I was there (I was also standing). I could see when she boarded, the people sitting looked up and then all, practically as one, turned eyes left to look at the fascinating spot on the wall. I guess pretending she wasn't there made them feel better about not offering her their seat. Even at the next stop, when a couple got up, all that happened was a scramble for the vacant seats. No-one stopped to offer this poor woman a seat.
Yesterday I was carrying 3 bags of groceries through IFC to the ferries. I managed to push the door open with my foot and was about to walk thru when someone coming the other way decided they would use the barely open door I'd created to push past me!

Now I can understand the rudeness and lack of empathy (though obviously I don't condone it). But there is one thing I really can't understand is when someone walks towards me in a situation like the one above.
I'm 6'3" and weigh 108kgs (~240lbs), at that moment with my bag and groceries, prob 115 (255). What do you think is going to happen when 250+lb going one way meets 100lbs going the opposite direction?
And they say the Chinese are good at science!
Doesn't take much of a scientist to know the physics involved there..