Job Discussion Forums

[NYCLizzie]

Newbie; traveled solo in my 20s around western Europe, but haven't (yet ) resided outside U.S.

Qualifications: BA with honors; TEFL.

Currently volunteer teaching English to Vietnamese. Have a place to stay with a friend's family in Saigon, but only for one week. (Likely will take longer to find job/housing -- wouldn't it make sense to find the job first?) But am hearing some pretty scary things about not trusting the locals who assume we foreigners are all rich (well, yes, compared to them -- we are) so it's okay to cheat and scam us.

Would love to hear from someone in HCMC/Saigon -- particularly from the female perspective.

Keeping healthy is important; my diet is mostly vegetarian, with some fish. Breathing is important, too. Where am I least likely to be bombarded by second-hand smoke and virulent air pollution?
(That's why I've ruled out China.)

Would also love to see Japan, but isn't the cost of living prohibitive?

Money is a major concern; will be cashing in some retirement $ to finance this trip. But this may be my last chance to fulfill my dream of living in another culture, learning from it, and being a positive example of an American overseas. And learning about Buddhism.

Feedback much appreciated; thanks!

[Cyan]

1. Food is very cheap and it won't be a problem finding Vegetarian restaurants.

2. Ait pollution - pretty bad.

3. Money is great and cost of living is really low.

Well it's not a very Buddhist place. If you go to Thailand the culture is more tangible. Religion is directly connected to the way people act in Thailand - it's a fascinating, calming place (Vietnam is none of these)

[NYCLizzie]

Cyan thanks for your input. Which country are you referring to in #1 2 3?

Thanks!

[Cyan]

Vietnam - #1,2,3

[Micro67]

[VanIslander]

NYCLizzie, twentysomething is NOT "midlife"!

Unless you think marriage and kids is a death sentence.

[lexpat]

[Proffeshnial Teachman]

Hi lexpat - check your inbox

I was in Saigon for 2.5 years and it is polluted and pretty dangerous on the roads but I did ride a bike so that can be largely avoided if you take cabs. It has a certain appeal, but you may be irritated by the lack of western amenities. The people are friendly and it's safe apart from the traffic.

I'd recommend Thailand, maybe Taiwan, although that's very polluted too. Cambodia is a bit hardcore, Laos is nice but finding work might be difficult. Malaysia?

Good luck

[sphinx]

Depending on your professional background, Singapore might be a good alternative. It is safe, clean, has lots of vegetarian resources and probably has the best set up for Westerners looking to learn about Buddhism in a formal setting. There are a few monasteries in Singapore that offer classes in Buddhist studies in English that operate basically as a college degree. These classes are typically taught by very credible Ph.D.s from established monasteries in major Buddhist centers like Sri Lanka.

Despite the conventional view, the cost of living in Singapore is not prohibitive. You can get a good meal for around US$2 and accommodation can be had for around US$500 a month. This is actually comparable in price to major Vietnamese cities like HCMC or Hanoi. However, the quality of the goods in Singapore is much higher.

If you choose not to work, you could probably live in Singapore on around US$10 - 15,000 a year. If you choose to work teaching English, you will probably earn enough to add to your retirement account. The expatriate community is very established and unlike what you will find in Vietnam, the Singapore expatriate is not likely to be a sex tourist or a drug addict who is in Asia because he cannot get his fix elsewhere.

[Proffeshnial Teachman]

[sphinx]

It depends on what you mean by comfortable. US$500 in Singapore will get you a 800 sq ft place that is within 30 minutes by public transportation to the city center. It would be the equivalent of living on the Upper West Side in Manhattan. You could also rent a room for US$200 if you wished. That would cut your expenses down further but add to the inconvenience of having to live with strangers. On the other hand, you would get the "local" experience rather reside in some kind of expat cocoon.

Food in Vietnam is not cheap. Given the disparity in per capita GDP, I was amazed to find that it was practically impossible to buy a meal for less than US$1. The average meal in Singapore costs US$1.50 at the local eateries. For the lowest cost of living, South Western China is the tops. There you can get a bowl of noodles for US$0.25. As China is wealthier than Vietnam, I was surprised to find that Vietnam was actually more expensive and the quality was typically lower. If you bought the cheap meals in Vietnam, it generally required you to eat at places that were manifestly unhygienic.

One would need to consider the issue value and not just costs. For the sexpats and drug addicts, a place like Singapore would hold no attraction. You would not want to break the law by smuggling or consuming drugs in Singapore. But for the older, more responsible sojourner, who is looking for a more meaningful experience and to engage on an intellectual and multidimensional level as the originator of the thread seems to want, I would strongly suggest that Singapore would be more likely to fulfill those needs rather than Vietnam.

Many of the expats in Vietnam are there because they want to do things that they should not be doing. Sex with minors, cheap access to heroin, an endless bevy of women who are willing to have unprotected sex with you� It is a very depressing scene. Think John Carr, the skinny, creepy loser who washed up on South East Asia�s shores and ask yourself if you would really want to be part of that mosaic in Vietnam. John Carr was arrested in Bangkok. And what goes on in Thailand is bad enough. What goes on in Vietnam will make you sick. There are foreign men who quite literally travel the country making cash offers to desperate parents for their young, virginal boys/girls. The cops turn the other way if you pay them enough. That is the kind of policing you can expect from Vietnam. When people say that Vietnam is safer than Europe, which part of Europe are they referring to? Bosnia?

[NYCLizzie]

Hello everyone

Wow, my original posting has certainly brought up a lot of interesting comments! (Though I do wonder how the sex & drugs factored in since that is pretty removed from where I am at. I am a Quaker , a/k/a The Religious Society of Friends and our "testomonies" are peace, equality, community, integrity and simplicity. And I really try to live my life by that.)

The more I read about Viet Nam and its history (particularly how the American war (that's what the Vietnamese call it) devastated the country in so many ways, e.g., never paid the reparations that we said we would, the economic embargo, the birth defects caused by Agent Orange, landmines, deafness caused by bombing, and the fact it is THE most bombed country -- I feel a moral and spiritual imperative to be one small part of the reparations that are owed (not to mention we also sanctioned Thatcher's embargo of milk for the children!)

In Meeting for Worship this morning, I had a vision of a Quaker English school based on the values cited above.

I so appreciate all of your opinions, advice, etc. In Quakerspeak, "thank thee!"

Lizzie, in Portland Oregon

[Proffeshnial Teachman]

[sphinx]

Ah�help poor Ms Saigon. Prior to going to Vietnam, I thought that the world had an obligation to help Vietnam. After going there, I began to understand why the GIs at the time felt that they needed to keep fighting. It was not a case of evil Nixon/McNamara ordering more bombs to be dropped on hapless villagers and napalming virgin rainforest just for the fun of it. The Vietnamese communists are of a type that is so terrible that even their one time brethren, the Chinese communists, went to war with them.

I have seen people in Vietnam get publicly beat up for the most trivial offenses. People with the right connections drive on the roads with a reckless abandonment because they will never be punished. And there is the ugly racism that is an inherent part of Vietnam�s national culture. The list could go on but I have no interest in recounting it.

In HCMC and Hanoi, food is expensive. Presumably, if you have lived there for two years, you would know where all the cheapest places are. And if you speak a little Vietnamese, the price comes down. For the first few months that a new teacher washes up on the beautiful shores of Vietnam, he/she is not likely to pay less than US$1 for a meal. A simple meal of Pho Gam would be 15,000 dong. Of course the locals only pay 5,000 dong. But try to get them to sell it you at the local rate and you would have to shed your Caucasian skin to succeed.

I did not say that all the teachers are in Vietnam for sex and drugs, but a significant number are. John Carr was in Bangkok as an English teacher to have sex with minors. He is by no means an isolated case. Because life revolves around the family, if you are there as a do-gooder expat living alone, you will find your existence to be horribly dull after a while. You can get the latest blockbuster movies from the ubiquitous cheap DVDs rip offs to pass your time, other than that, practically nothing is available to you. For most people, that is a problem and they move on as they seek a more entertaining lifestyle. The ones who do stay are the ones with special interests.

If you are accepted as a friend, the Vietnamese people are probably the most gracious in the world. As a guest, you would blush at how far they will go to extend hospitality to you. But I think that the originator of this thread needs to understand just how broken Vietnam�s society is. No one trusts anyone. The people you see �policing� the streets do not do it to protect you, they are part of the police state that keeps the ridiculously corrupt �communists� in power. Everything is done by force or the threat of it. Even though the individual Vietnamese can melt your heart with their sweetness, they can speak of destroying others with such hard edged candor that you will be left breathless. How can such Oriental softness hide such pointed fangs? Stay long enough and you will learn that they need it just to survive.

I am extending my hand to someone who is thinking of doing something very idealistic, thoughts which I had once entertained myself. The poverty, the birth defects from Agent Orange, their reputation as the most bombed place on the face of the earth, it cries out to every broken American looking to help others so that they might heal themselves. Well then, come to Vietnam and see for yourself the horrors of a Hobbesian state. Yes, America did bomb Hue to rubble; but what is happening in Vietnam today has nothing to do with the United States. It is all Vietnamese left, right and center. Don�t forget that as you paddle through your dream.

[NYCLizzie]

Wow -- I don't know what to believe, but this is pretty typical of ALL the teacher/expat sites -- so much contradictory info it leaves my head spinning!

In response to the most recent postings:

1. I wouldn't expect to find a quality meal for less than $1.00, and yes, I know there is a 2-tier price system.

2. Sphinx's comment about "every broken American looking to help others so they may heal themselves." Well, why do you think many go into into helping professions? And, there's a BIG difference between seeing oneself as a helper (and therefore superior) vs. knowing we are all teachers to each other. I am sure that the Vietnamese (or people from any other culture) will have far more to teach me than I'll ever have to teach them.

3. War does seem to bring out the most ignominious traits in man. In today's Oregonian there was a horrific article about the methods our American lads used to torture the captive Vietnamese. War is always about loss; there are no winners. Yet our so-called civilized species has still not learned that. Who has the potential for more evil is really a moot point.

So, I may find Viet Nam too lonely as an unattached female without family (even for a former model.) But that would be pretty much true in most of Asia, wouldn't it? That does leave me on the outside looking in -- even in my own country. (And, yes I've read that (most?)expat men are dating the local women.)

So maybe I will be in VN short term, and then move on elsewhere.

One female teacher suggested I would be better off in Ha Noi , where she is.

Thoughts?

Peace,
Lizzie