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| How do you rate Kojen Schools (ELSI) |
| 10 (Best on the Island) |
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0% |
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| 9 |
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22% |
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| 7 |
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11% |
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11% |
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11% |
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11% |
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0% |
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11% |
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| 1 (Worst on the Island) |
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22% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 9 |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Aristotle. I have been through the list of links that you have provided and you seem to have proved my point. You could do a lot worse than Kojen. Most complaints stem from numbers of hours and pay rates. No legitimate complaints of being ripped off, expected to work without pay, or of teachers promised legal employment finding themselves working illegally.
A look at any of the boards that you have linked to will show that other schools do a lot worse to their teachers than Kojen does. You may not personally like them, or other chain schools for that matter, but you have to agree that people who work for them aren't screwed over. Sure no school is perfect and managers vary so not everyone is happy, but even those who take the trouble to complain about Kojen seem to add a disclaimer that the school isnt that bad. Considering the numbers of teachers they have working for them, I think that complaints are inevitable, but are they based upon genuine problems or just personality clashes and culture shock. From the list you have provided, the only legitimate complaint seems to be the lady who fought over her deposit. In the end she won and the school stopped taking deposits.
For those new to Taiwan and with no teaching experience Kojen can offer a good potential opportunity. Dont restrict your search to this school of course, but dont overlook them either. |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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This is what I know about Kojen ( formerly ESLI).
The schools in Taipei city are fairly well respected and have a decent reputation. They had maintained that for many years with few exceptions. The reason for this was the presence and guidance of a few long term professional staff. All of whom have since left or been replaced with more "loyal" Chinese staff.
Outside of Taipei the exact opposite is true. Years of complaints and illegitimate business practices. Rip offs and unofficial deportations are very common particularly in the Taichung and Kaohsiung branches.
If I may quote the manager and relative of the owner of Kojen/ELSI, Taichung.
Miss Jyou.
"They (English teachers) are foreigners...They have no rights!"
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/asia/sefer.cgi?display:1000625045-28937.txt
This was an official statement at a CLA legal mediation between Kojen/ELSi and one of their teachers whom they had taken a work deposit from. I have the meeting on tape and the quote is a matter of official records. I think it accurately represents the viewpoint of Kojen (ELSi) pertaining to their foreign employees.
A. |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 3:52 am Post subject: |
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OK, let's assume that Kojen is as you suggest a scourge on Taiwan as far as their employment record of foreigners. As foreigners are always going to come here to teach, and many of these new comers would visit this board for information on where and where not to work - let me ask you this.
Aristotle, which schools would you recommend that people work for. It may be a case of the best of the worst as far as you are concerned, but considering that these people are going to end up working somewhere, any names that you give would be helpful.
As I stated earlier, Kojen isn't perfect but newcomers could do a lot worse. What would be your advice? |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:42 am Post subject: |
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My advice is the same as so many of the long term successful teachers that have been teaching in Taiwan for many years.
10 steps to success on Taiwan.
1. Don't take a job from overseas, you need to be in Taiwan to find a good job.
2. Do not work for a school that has any complaints filed against it.
3. Stay out Chaiyi and Taidong counties.
4. Don't use a recruiter or work for chain schools if you can help it.
5. Do your homework and get a multiple entry, tourist visa for business purposes.
6. Only allow a school to sponsor your ARC if you are 100% sure they won't screw you and only if it is absolutely necessary.
7. Visa runs are worth the price and not just because of the money or visa.
8. When things go bad and they usually do for newbies, quit and find another job quickly.
9. You can only do 8 if your employer doesn't own you.
10. Find a school that has been around for a few years, has a good reputation and is professionally run by teachers, not egocentric business people.
Remember that R.O.C. stands for Republic of Criminals. The government is the most corrupt institution on the island.
Last edited by Aristotle on Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, yeah....heard this all before, whilst it may be true, it isnt particularly helpful for those that know very little about Taiwan. I am sure that what they need is names and contact details for schools. The contact details for the chain schools are readily available online, but since you seem to find the idea of working for a chain school somehow reprehensible, you may like to make some alternative suggestions. I am talking about you actually recommending some schools by name that you have either had experience with or have received recommendations about.
As a 'teachers union' I am sure that SSET has received information from teachers who are actually happy with the jobs that they have here in Taiwan. Surely it is more than just a bitch fest. Maybe you could share some of these details, including contact details with us all, rather than all the doom and gloom stuff which isnt particularly helpful.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| 1. Don't take a job from overseas, you need to be in Taiwan to find a good job. |
Good advice. Exceptions may be those arriving with kids of their own and who may require some form of job security from day one. These individuals should be particularly careful as even the really reputable schools wont sign contracts with people overseas as they want to check that you are suitable for their school. Any school that is willing to employ someone without even meeting may be a bit of a concern.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| 2. Do not work for a school that has any complaints filed against it. |
Well this seems obvious but considering that some complaints are legitimate whilst others are just made by disgruntled past employees it may prove difficult to find a school that hasnt had any complaints made against it. Kojen is a good example of this. It might be best to suggest people to avoid schools that have a number of genuine complaints against their name.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| 3. Stay out Chaiyi and Taidong counties. |
Surely we have already beaten this to death. It is ridiculous to suggest that whole areas should be avoided just because of some bad experiences. By the way, other than yourself, I certainly havent seen other experienced teachers warning others against this.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| 4. Don't use a recruiter or work for chain schools if you can help it. |
Whilst it is true that people dont need a recruiter to find work, some may prefer to use them for peace of mind. Not all recruiters are dishonest, but care should be exercised when dealing with them. Familiarize yourself with how they get paid to ensure that you are not getting screwed. Avoid recruiters that collect their fees off of the top of your wages. Avoid IACC as the contract that they have posted online really sucks. Other than that, just check and double check everything to ensure that you dont get any nasty surprises.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with chain schools. You know how much you are going to get paid and this is exactly how much you get paid. Of course if you are not happy with their rates of pay then dont work for them, but it is not reasonable to suggest that they should be avoided.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| 5. Do your homework and get a multiple entry, tourist visa for business purposes. |
Agreed. It is technically not legal but proves to be the accepted way of looking for and accepting employment here in Taiwan.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| 6. Only allow a school to sponsor your ARC if you are 100% sure they won't screw you and only if it is absolutely necessary. |
It would be difficult to guarantee that you wont have any troubles. Provided that you do what you agree to do as per the contract, including staying for the full contract term you should find things work out okay. Very few schools set out to screw foreigners, but there are far too many that have obscure management. Try to go with the flow rather than fight things, and don't be afraid to leave a job if it really sucks. Things may be a bit complicated but it can be done. The suggestion that working illegally somehow protects you from being screwed is ludicrous.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| 7. Visa runs are worth the price and not just because of the money or visa. |
Dont agree. Visa runs suck. There is not only the cost of the travel but the loss of income and inconvenience of traveling to the airport etc. Add to this the fact that on any of these trips you could be refused a re-entry for any number of (undisclosed) reasons, and it seems pretty silly to go to all of this trouble when other alternatives are available.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| 8. When things go bad and they usually do for newbies, quit and find another job quickly. |
This is not based upon any fact whatsoever and is just not true. People do run into troubles here that is a fact, but the numbers of those that actually do run into trouble is really very small. I do agree however that if anyone is genuinely unhappy in their job then they should leave. Once again it may prove inconvenient but is better than the alternative.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| 9. You can only do 8 if your employer doesn't own you. |
Despite what you say, employers dont own you. They do have a certain degree of control and responsibility as the sponsor of the teachers visas.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| 10. Find a school that has been around for a few years has a good reputation and is professionally run by teachers, not egocentric business people. |
See number 2 above.
| Aristotle wrote: |
| Remember that R.O.C. stands for Republic of Criminals. The government is the most corrupt institution on the island. |
Here we go...... |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:07 am Post subject: |
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Well Brian, I hate do burst your bubble...no wait a minute, I don't mind bursting it one bit.......Kojen sux...and that is coming from a former teacher who completed his contract and wanted to stay on for another year....only at a different school...and before you leap to the false conclusion that I suck as a teacher, you couldn't be more wrong.
I don't want to waste time with personal details, I've gone into this plenty of times on this board and others.....stay away from Kojen or you WILL be sorry....
A friend of mine finished his contract and is now trying to get the letter that releases him from Kojen's resposibility so he can work for a new school (the best school in Taiwan bar none) and after running him back and forth between their head office and his former branch with both ends claiming they don't know what letter he's talking about, his visa is about to expire forcing him on another visa run. This is how Kojen treats good former employees. Buddha help you if you have a mind of your own and dare to question their daily ineptitude.
once again,
STAY AWAY FROM KOJEN! |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the info Pop Fly. Its good to get info and feedback from different sources.
I too am an ex-Kojen teacher hence my familiarity with the problems with their books and teaching hours that they have. I left amicably and can appreciate the school for what it had to offer a newly arrived teacher, as green as I was.
My point is pretty simple really. You, your friend and/or Aristotle are entitled not to like the school or the way that it is run. No school is perfect. The fact remains however that as schools go, Kojen (or any of the large franchise schools) are pretty much the best places for most newly arrived teachers to start out. They won't intentionally rip you off, they wont stiff you for a visa, and they wont put you in a situation where you unwittingly find yourself working illegally - all the things that are major concerns for new arrivals. Add to that the training, support and general user friendliness of the place for people with no teaching experience, and I think it would be difficult to beat.
If you feel that Kojen is to be avoided at all costs then it might be helpful to post some contact information regarding schools that would be more suitable for new arrivals. I am sure that this information would be much appreciated by the readers of this board.
Here is some discussion on the school that you feel is the best in Taiwan:
http://forumosa.com/3/viewtopic.php?t=7397&highlight=wall+street
Now I know nothing of this school so can neither vouch for it nor the accuracy of the posts made about it, but considering that the postings come from a well respected board here in Taiwan and feature posts from a wide range of people all with the same problems, I would have to assume that they are partly justified in their complaints. Just goes to show that even the 'best school on Taiwan' isn't perfect.
Finally, as I missed your earlier posts on the subject, I would be interested in knowing why you feel that Kojen is such a bad school. There are plenty of such complaints around regarding schools here in Taiwan - stories of lies, rip-offs, visa cancelling etc. Were you the victim of this at Kojen? |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| brian wrote: |
| Thanks for the info Pop Fly. Its good to get info and feedback from different sources. |
You are welcome
| brian wrote: |
| I too am an ex-Kojen teacher hence my familiarity with the problems with their books and teaching hours that they have. |
Are you familiar with the dragon-lady at school 4 (kids)? She is one of the longest running CD's at KJ....if this woman is a respected manager, then KJ has got to go...I have had hundreds of jobs in my life, with lots of inept managers, but this one is the worst....and I am not talking about how she treated me, but her intimidation tactics with the Chinese staff....if someone had talked to me (in my home country) the way she talks to her employees, I would have done everything I could to destroy her...the most I can do here is to make sure everyone doing research on KJ understands that there are much better schools to work for...everyone I know that worked their first year at KJ says it was a collosal waste of time.
| brian wrote: |
| I left amicably and can appreciate the school for what it had to offer a newly arrived teacher, as green as I was. |
Yes, the soft landing was why I chose KJ....but in retrospect, it was not worth it at all....the hardships they saved me from encountering were finding a bus to Taipei from CKS and having to pay to stay in a hostel for a week....both of which, if I could turn back the clock, I would gladly endure to avoid a wasted year at KJ.
| brian wrote: |
| My point is pretty simple really. You, your friend and/or Aristotle are entitled not to like the school or the way that it is run. No school is perfect. |
We are also entitled to warn others away from it. True, no school is perfect, but I would not only say KJ is the furthest from perfect, but it is barely a school. It is a babysitting service for kids and a rip-off for adults.
| brian wrote: |
| The fact remains however that as schools go, Kojen (or any of the large franchise schools) are pretty much the best places for most newly arrived teachers to start out. |
No, no, no!!!! The best thing for a newly arrived teacher to do is to spend a week or two doing demos and talking to teachers. Spend 2 weeks honing your negotiation skills. Do demos at yoyo, xiao, chong, da, buxi and anjin bans....try talking to some adult schools....decide what is best for your personality....spend two weeks searching for a good match and enjoy your year....or be suckered into a "soft landing" agreement with KJ and spend the first 2 months in culture-awe and the remaining 10 regretting not doing what I and countless others have suggested...just come here and look around.
and on a side note...KJ's 1 year contract is actually 14 months...they don't consider you on contract until you get your ARC....so all the work you do b4 that doesn't count.
| brian wrote: |
| They won't intentionally rip you off, they wont stiff you for a visa, and they wont put you in a situation where you unwittingly find yourself working illegally - all the things that are major concerns for new arrivals. |
of course they wouldn't.....their reputation would be a lot worse if these things happened...can you name any large chain school that rips off, stiffs or bungles visas?
| brian wrote: |
| Add to that the training, support and general user friendliness of the place for people with no teaching experience, and I think it would be difficult to beat. |
Oh come on Brian....the training consists of...this is our curriculum (archaic confucian memorization curriculum)...go do it.....don't make any waves or point out the hundreds of grammer and spelling mistakes in our ancient books or we will label you a trouble maker and not give you any hours. Teaching English requires leadership skills and a basic command of the language.....if you don't have leadership skills, you will be a lousy teacher....no one can train you to be a leader....user friendly yes......because it is so simplistic.....
Now...how do you feel about all the correcting and final reports and, yes, planning that you have to do for no compensation? I estimate that for every 2 hours you get paid at KJ, you have to put in 30-45 minutes (more when you first start) of UNPAID work....
| brian wrote: |
| If you feel that Kojen is to be avoided at all costs then it might be helpful to post some contact information regarding schools that would be more suitable for new arrivals. I am sure that this information would be much appreciated by the readers of this board. |
I believe I did that by recommending Wall Street.
| brian wrote: |
Here is some discussion on the school that you feel is the best in Taiwan:
http://forumosa.com/3/viewtopic.php?t=7397&highlight=wall+street
Now I know nothing of this school so can neither vouch for it nor the accuracy of the posts made about it, but considering that the postings come from a well respected board here in Taiwan and feature posts from a wide range of people all with the same problems, I would have to assume that they are partly justified in their complaints. Just goes to show that even the 'best school on Taiwan' isn't perfect. |
Did you even read the thread you've posted? It seems to me that the complaints were made by misinformed whingers who think they are Buddha's gift to teaching.....whining saps who think they are too good to fill in an application form. The more stoic of Forumosans shot these complainers down and the result is that the basic tone of the thread is a positive one....
| brian wrote: |
| Finally, as I missed your earlier posts on the subject, I would be interested in knowing why you feel that Kojen is such a bad school. There are plenty of such complaints around regarding schools here in Taiwan - stories of lies, rip-offs, visa cancelling etc. Were you the victim of this at Kojen? |
As I said in my original post for this thread, I don't want to re-write my issues...and my experience wasn't that bad compared to others (especially the taiwanese that work there)....when I say that KJ sux, it's because I know lots of people who have done their 1st year with them and regrret not simply coming here and looking around for themselves....LOTS OF PEOPLE!!!! |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:24 am Post subject: |
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Pop Fly, what you have said above is all very reasonable, and of course you and everyone else has the right to voice your opinion about schools. We are all equal here.
I guess that my concern is that Kojen and other chain schools get a bad rap on these boards which I feel is undeserved. They are good solid schools that will ensure that you are legal and get paid for the work that you do. Yes, there will problems with some management at some schools - such as Drangon lady, but overall you could do a lot worse.
The poll on this topic is pretty indicative of the bias on these boards towards negative comments being made about Taiwan and Taiwan schools. This stands to reason as I guess that the teachers who do come here and have a great time are not likely to sit around and post messages on these boards saying how great Taiwan is. It is only those that are holding a grudge or have an axe to grind that do so. I am not suggesting that you are one of these. You speak of personal experience, and in my book this is worth a million dollars for readers of this forum. I am talking about the scaremongerers and those individuals who got fired from a job and then come here for retribution by posting stuff about their schools.
My biggest concern is the advice that newly arrived teachers should shy away from the big chain schools in favor of smaller schools. It is not clear to me why these teachers would be in a better position for doing so.
It is clear to me that chain school offer:
1. Reasonable job security
2. A guaranteed pay check each month
3. Guaranteed teaching hours, holidays, benefits etc.
4. Legal working status and visa
5. Training - generally unpaid, which is either a good or a bad thing, whichever way you look at it.
6. A set teaching program - again a bone of contention for some, but I think that it saves teachers time having to prepare this themselves which is a good thing.
6. The opportunity to transfer between schools if you have problems with management at a certain schools (This may not apply to those working at franchised schools though!)
Small schools:
1. May offer higher rates of pay, but do the math on salary offers to ensure that the average hourly pay is all that it is cracked up to be
2. Can often be owner/operated - once again a good or bad thing. I have worked at schools where such bosses treated staff as their own family with regular dinners out, trips away etc., whilst others have been on teachers backs everyday about making more money. Could really go either way?
3. Are the biggest abusers of the system of renting ARC's from other schools which is fine for them but leaves teachers vulnerable to deportation for working illegally. This is fine if it has been explained to the teacher, but reprehensible if the teacher doesnt know about it.
The list goes on and on.....
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I wouldnt work for Kojen (for all of the reasons that Pop Fly has outlined and more), but I would still recommend that friends include Kojen in any short list of schools they are looking at. It is easy for those that have been living here for a while to say that you dont need the support and security that schools like Kojen can offer, but I think that it is wrong of us to suggest that new arrivals should avoid the school just because we don't particulary like the way they do things.
Once again, if there are reports of Kojen ripping teachers off or leaving them working illegally and facing deportation then this is the forum to warn teachers against such unscrupulous activities. I havent heard of any and this is one of the main reasons that I vouch for them. I couldnt recommend that new arrivals investigate small schools as there is some uncertainty there. Sure there are some good small schools out there, but it must be awful for those who sign up at one of the bad ones!
One final thing for Pop Fly. Certainly Wall Street is not a school that I would recommend people avoid. If you are interested in teaching adults then it is worth a look. As with Kojen I think that you would be highly unlikely to find yourself in any legal strife if you chose to work for them. My earlier post on the subject was really just to show that even good schools have complaints made against them. We need to help new arrivals wade through the rhetoric. |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| brian wrote: |
| We need to help new arrivals wade through the rhetoric. |
Let's then, shall we...
Brian, you are making a very sound argument. Yes, the chances of being ripped off at a smaller school is possible....but Taiwan is not Korea....the chances are not nearly as "good" of encountering greed and deception.
And yes, part of me is grinding an axe...I would like to see Ken Ho out of business....such distaste did this company leave in my mouth. And again, not just from my experience....a friend of mine is going thru hell with them right now trying to wretch himself free of their petty talons...
There are plenty of chain schools that compete and offer the same deal as Kojen....choose one of them if you don't have the YonChi (courage) to find your own way....Kojen has clearly revealed themselves as xenophobes...Ken Ho has been quoted as saying that he would rather run his business without weiguoren...so be it...the one way to get this guy would be to take his face away by not giving him any of our faces....cuz when you get down to it...that's all Kojen sees you as...a white face....
I am merely suggesting that you can do much better by yourself to put in the shoe time and walk around the island checking things out. You can always take the first kindy job, get paid cash, move on to somewhere else...
Hell, even factor a visa run to Okinawa or HK into your budget....this will allow the newbie to take their time and find a match.
This board in particular, tealit and Dave's give you all the do and don't's, suggestions and advice, pitfalls and perils a newbie can encounter....if you are gonna move around the world to a strange land....do your research....land here armed with as much information as you can glean about teaching in Taiwan....just stay away from Kojen...
Want more reasons why?
| brian wrote: |
It is clear to me that chain school offer:
1. Reasonable job security
2. A guaranteed pay check each month
3. Guaranteed teaching hours, holidays, benefits etc.
4. Legal working status and visa
5. Training - generally unpaid, which is either a good or a bad thing, whichever way you look at it.
6. A set teaching program - again a bone of contention for some, but I think that it saves teachers time having to prepare this themselves which is a good thing.
6. The opportunity to transfer between schools if you have problems with management at a certain schools (This may not apply to those working at franchised schools though!) |
1. When I first got here, I met 2 other guys, recently arrived as I, and they were getting 3 and 6 hours a week respectively. Not very much security, if legally, you can't work elsewhere, no? One went back to the states, and one had to teach privates and do visa runs every 2 months....which, I know for a fact that he enjoyed his first year more than I or any other teachers who continued to work for KJ did.
2. Twice a month actually....and this is a positive....but even still, I have heard of one manager trying to play fast and loose with a teacher's pay....she went on holidays and the school didn't deposit her cheque, thinking she may not be coming back....
3.Go Pee (Bullshit) Gauranteed hours do not exist and please don't mislead people that they do.
4. Big Deal
5. see 4. In my year I never took or was asked to give, any training....
6. Their "program" is based on Confucian learning principles.....memorize and never make a mistake. While this approach works great for math, science and even athletics....languages are an art and cannot be learned in this manner. Graduates of A-5 classes from KJ are still too paralyzed with fear to speak. Sure, they can spell 1000 words, but give a stranger directions in English...forget it....
6?. See 3. Emphatically. As you may have surmised, I was at odds with my Director. She is famous for her nastiness. I don't suffer this well. I had numerous talks with her about transferring....the AD of the adult department was even trying to get me transferred.
Now, soft landing aside, I took the job with Kojen because I had long chats with Prentice and believed that KJ had career potential....I came here to teach and to live. I was making Tw my home and wanted a company that represented longevity. I turned down a 90K a month gig offered me during my 2nd week a KJ because I had said I would work for KJ and honourably stayed with them.
As for my teaching ability, in case you may doubt my dedication to the job....I missed 4 hours due to illness the whole year...took 1 day of holidays, my students loved me and always passed and always re-signed. In fact, my A-5/A-6 class of nine students recently had a reunion. This was a special class for me. 9-14/15 yr olds, 3 hours on Saturday afternoon. We would blast thru KJ's "curriculum" in the first hour and spend the rest of the time talking about everything and anything we could think of to talk about. They asked me questions and I imbued them with a lust for learning....They invited me to the reunion and informed me that 5 of them have been accepted to the top high school in the land and 3 to the second highest...the ninth tries next year....no amount of NT can replace the feeling I have about this. Words, mere words cannot....if you are a teacher, then nothing more....
Kojen could have had me. I wanted to work there. Instead, I will vociferously suggest to all that you give them a pass and do all I can to put Wall Street up as a shining example of what is professional and fair in Taiwan. Our methodology is gauranteed and IMHO, ideal for language acquistion. We teach experiencially and successfully. Trust me, Kojen's not gonna need my rantings here to put it outta business..... |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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I fear that we are going have to just agree to disagree on this matter. I am still not convinced that newcomers should avoid Kojen. I am not suggesting that Kojen is the most suitable school for everyone (I include myself in this basket), but I certainly feel that they offer a reasonable deal. By the way, when I talk about Kojen I am really talking about large chain schools in general. Your complaints about Kojen seem to stem largely from your problems with management, and the friend that you refer to seems to have problems that originate from his decision to break his contract and leave early. Certainly non of the concerns with working without pay, being ripped off or left to work illegally, that new teachers are concerned about.
| Pop Fly wrote: |
I am merely suggesting that you can do much better by yourself to put in the shoe time and walk around the island checking things out. You can always take the first kindy job, get paid cash, move on to somewhere else...
Hell, even factor a visa run to Okinawa or HK into your budget....this will allow the newbie to take their time and find a match. |
I guess by this that you are suggesting that newcomers work illegally during their initial time here. It is certainly an option, although not one that I would recommend when options are available. It would be awful to come all the way here and run into legal troubles in the first two months that could haunt you in the future. This also moves a bit away from the topic of Kojen which only offers legal employment (to the best of my knowledge anyway!).
| Pop Fly wrote: |
| 1. When I first got here, I met 2 other guys, recently arrived as I, and they were getting 3 and 6 hours a week respectively. Not very much security, if legally, you can't work elsewhere, no? One went back to the states, and one had to teach privates and do visa runs every 2 months....which, I know for a fact that he enjoyed his first year more than I or any other teachers who continued to work for KJ did. |
In order to be able to process a work visa/ARC on your behalf the school needs to have a contract with you for at least 18 hours a week. I have no idea why those guys were only working for a few hours, but if they were working legally (which we can assume that they were considering my earlier statements regarding Kojen) then they should have been getting paid for at least 18 hours a week even if the school wasnt offering them these hours. The contracts that I am familiar with make this very clear. Either they weren't aware of this and didnt get their entitlements, or they had some other arrangement with Kojen that we are not aware of. The fact that one was doing visa runs suggests that he wasnt under contract (possibly because he didnt qualify for an ARC through the school - nationality, no degree etc.) a situation that some faced in the past as schools tried to fill positions and offer work to those that otherwise didnt qualify.
| Pop Fly wrote: |
| 2. Twice a month actually....and this is a positive....but even still, I have heard of one manager trying to play fast and loose with a teacher's pay....she went on holidays and the school didn't deposit her cheque, thinking she may not be coming back..... |
There will always be isolated problems with management, such as the legitimate concerns that you have with Dragon lady. Unless it is a problem that everyone encounters I think it unreasonable to expect people to stay away from a whole organisation because of these personal concerns.
| Pop Fly wrote: |
| 3.Go Pee (*beep*) Gauranteed hours do not exist and please don't mislead people that they do. |
I have no idea why you suggest this! Every job that I have ever had within chain schools had guaranteed hours attached to it. The standard minimum has always been 18 hours (as per above) and in some cases it was even higher. In one job I had to negotiate these terms, but in the others it was standard. I will conceed however that some contracts arent very clear and may be misinterpreted as guaranteeing a large number of hours when in fact that amount in the maximum possible. As always you should read contracts carefully and make sure that you understand them. Take care that you dont commit to too many hours in the beginning, work into it.
| Pop Fly wrote: |
| 5. see 4. In my year I never took or was asked to give, any training.... |
Once again my experience with the large chain schools is that training is available almost constantly. In some monthly, in others only six monthly. This training may be optional and in your case you may have overlooked this, or your manager may not have told you about it. I am sure that during any calender year Kojen would have at least one training course if not more!
You are obviously very happy at Wall Street and that's great. It is good that you are promoting them and supporting them as there is nothing worse than those scaremongerers who suggest that every school in Taiwan is just out to get you. Just out of curiosity could you post some further info about the postions available at Wall Street.
1. Are they adults only or are there kids classes as well?
2. What hours do teachers tend to work? How many hours a week?
3. How are the books - are they produced in house or brought in from overseas?
4. What is the pay for new teachers (without experience or teaching certificate)? Conditions - holidays, leave etc.
5. How many schools are there in Taiwan?
6. Is the teaching done within the school or outside in businesses etc?
It would be great to know this as I must admit I know very little about the adult teaching scene. Thanks in advance for your answers to the above! |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:47 am Post subject: |
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I obviously can't pursuade you to see things my way....so I will simply inform you that my friend completed his contract, did his visa run and 6 weeks later, has still not been released from Kojen at the MOE level....he is going to have to do another visa run because Kojen is so petty that they make it really difficult to leave them.
Also....maybe in Kindy and Adults are where you can get guaranteed hours....but at the buxiban level....this is a canard....they tell you that you will get 18 hours at least, but this is not what happens....I averaged 12 in my last 4 months....so did my aforementioned friend...so does anyone who is not going to renew....
KOJEN SUX....
Please accept this and move on....there are lots of other schools that suck a lot less....don't commit to these people OR YOU WILL BE SORRY!!!!!
As for Wall Street....all your questions are anwered at the very thread you (Brian) initially pointed me to.
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Well Mr Pop-Fly. Thanks for your totally uninformative reply. I tell you what, I haven't got anything against the school that you work for (yet!), but I have to say that if you are an indication of the sort of person that works there, then I am happy I have never set foot in the joint.
The whole discussion surrounding your school on the other board centered around the cloak and dagger approach to what your school offers teachers. It seems that these comments were justified as the cloak and dagger continues with your failure to answer some simple questions regarding the school that you so freely promote as the best here in Taiwan. You are the one that brought the school to our attention so what exactly is it that you guys are afraid that we will all find out. FYI, the answers to the majority of my questions are not contained in the post that you refer to, and even if they were whats the harm in posting them again in one neat little package.
As I have stated repeatedly we are all within our rights to post our feelings regarding schools on this board, but to suggest that a whole organization sucks and should be avoided because you and your friends didnt agree with the way things were run, is out of line in my opinion. You seem to agree with this logic, judging by your opinions regarding the individuals who posted negative comments about the school that you so love.
Here is a link to a discussion on the board that you recommend, and made by the very people that you refer to as the stoic Forumosans, that sums up the situation regarding Kojen quite well I think. It might be worth a look:
http://forumosa.com/3/viewtopic.php?t=4123
We have certainly beaten this topic to death, and although I am sure that you will reply (I know that I would - I can't walk away from a good argument), I suggest that we move on. Whatta you say? Anyway, all the best Pop Fly - I am sure that we will butt heads again on another thread. |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Whoa.....
Easy big fella....
I thought I could respond quickly by reposting the link (was on a break)....but please let me now give your questions their fair due.
| Brian wrote: |
1. Are they adults only or are there kids classes as well?
2. What hours do teachers tend to work? How many hours a week?
3. How are the books - are they produced in house or brought in from overseas?
4. What is the pay for new teachers (without experience or teaching certificate)? Conditions - holidays, leave etc.
5. How many schools are there in Taiwan?
6. Is the teaching done within the school or outside in businesses etc?
|
1. All adults...all the time....translation, students that want to be there....what a joy this is over kids....and I love kids and was a very successful kindy and buxi teacher....
2. 27 hours over 5 days...one of which is a weekend day. You'll work a 5 or 6 class day of 55 minute classes...usually close together, 1 day is a split.
3. Wall Street is part of an international chain and uses it's own materials...it is an interactive and simple way to learn English and the basic methodolgy is completely unique to the ESL industry in Taiwan...gauranteed results.....more info will not be forthcoming due to trade secrets...  suffice it to say, it's a lot easier to use than Kojen's system and there is zero prep, et al.
4. I am not sure if I should say anything other than how I am completely satisfied....I could make a lot more money, if money was my motivation, elsewhere....if money was my raison d'etre, I'd be teaching in Taoyuan or Ilan working a morning kindy and evening buxi....or I'd travel all over the city doing 1k/hr privates....or managing a kindy somewhere....
I want to teach, in a progressive, professional environment, where I am treated as fairly as I treat others...where the students learn before your eyes...it's what I've found....
Holidays are up to you....I think it's half pay for CNY, that's it...hey...it's a fair and competitive package...with the beauty bonus that, after serving a year, you can transfer to any other school you'd like....in Barcelona, Paris, Prague, Tokyo...something like 26 countries....I am probably going to take a couple of months off to get my dive masters, hopefully before the end of this season....
5. There are 5 schools in Taiwan....Train Station, Nanking, Breeze Centre, Panciao and KaioShung....more opening soon...
6. Everything is done in house.
| Brian wrote: |
| if you are an indication of the sort of person that works there, then I am happy I have never set foot in the joint. |
Actually, I'm a hell of a fun guy  ....maybe overly passionate about this whole Kojen thing  .....but hey....in my opinion, they should be outta business....that they can think of and treat people the way they do is farcical....and how many shitty things have happened that you have never been able to do anything about....now I can....read my rant, bide it or ignore it....your choice...but let's try to keep from getting personal with comments like that. Not very nice of you....  |
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