Job Discussion Forums

[shmooj]

Just a guy commented in another thread about how helpful a discussion of presenting prepositions was for him as a newbie. Someone also mentioned present perfect as being less than perfect to teach.

I don't think we are so much interested in why we use it as in recognising that students need it and so it has to be taught. (Foreboding of doom... I really don't want this to turn into a slagging match over how useful/less the present perfect is! )

I'll keep my answer till later as I've said enough for now, but, for the newbies in particular, how do those of you who have successfully done it taught the present perfect tense?

[denise]

timelines and questions (with loads and loads and loads of examples/comparisons):

1. Is the action completed? (find a time marker in the sentence)
2. Is the action on-going? (look for a time marker in the sentence)
3. Do you think the action will continue into the future? (how do you know? is there a time marker/indication?)
4. For recent actions, do you still feel the effects? (what effects? how do you feel them? e.g. I've dropped my keys. They are still on the floor.)

I'd write more examples, but I am using a Japanese keyboard right now and it is driving me crazy!!!!!

d

[tubig]

Be careful here! Which Present perfect ya mean: British or American? BIIIIIIg differs here methinks.

[johnslat]

Dear tubig,
British or American present perfect? Hmm, first I've heard of that. Would you elaborate?
Regards,
John

[J-Pop]

[tubig]

Ye most British teachers find it strange that Americans don't realise there is a dif in the concepts. Here is a clue. A bit sarkie I suppose! Think about the participle use: as the past simple, a mistake that is common in American English. It is interesting also that in the ALC (Lackland) it is exposed in the British way and then - oh dear! examined(?) in the American way. More later if you want it>

[denise]

Yes, there is a difference in usage. I (an American) teach as many forms as I know, and I simply point out the differences: this is British; this is American...

Who knows how/when/where our students will use the language? I know that the majority of my students plan to transfer to universities in the States, so the bulk of what they will hear will be American English, but they should know that there are other Englishes out there. (And yes, I know I am simplifying quite a bit by referring only to British and American...)

d

[johnslat]

Dear tubig and denise,
Perhaps I'm a bit thick today, but I still don't see / know WHAT that diffference is.

tubig wrote: "Think about the participle use: as the past simple . . "

Do you mean a mistake such as - He has went there - ?

Would someone be so kind as to give me side by side examples:

American PP:
British PP:

Thanks,
John

[tubig]

Dear John
I'm ready for bed now. Not fit to give it justice. I promise I will give it a go next posting. When I wake up. The difs are not startling but provide a few thought stabs. An example might be that the British (in general) tend to refrain from the loose, to them, usage of - yet, already,ever etc. with the Past simple. I will elaborate at later date. It has been suggested that the concept shift from British usage to American usage encourages (nay sorry! 'can encourage') the use of hanging participles. "I done this before you done that'. I am not saying one concept is any better than another here. I am just noting. It may be noted also that the hanging participle is as common in certain parts of Northern England and Scottish Lowlands as it is in America. Interesting project for some budding psycho/socio linguist somewhere maybe.

[shmooj]

Tubig, irrespective of the differences (we wait with baited breath for your explanation...), could you answer the question? To be honest, I couldn't make head or tail of your first post, and the second one was hard going too. I hope you aren't demonstrating how you teach your students this

[dmb]

John, this is just a guess but I think this is what tubig means. Both US and UK English use the present perfect for unfinished past and experience. However we strange brits use the present perfect for result. An activity I use for this is send a couple of students out the class and get the students to move things around. The students then come back in the classroom and I hope to elicit 'Hammad has moved chairs' Khalid has turned his gutra inside out. If they say 'Hammad moved... ' and Khalid turned ... ' it's not grammatically incorrect and so I have to accept it and get back under my TEFL stone from where I came.

[johnslat]

Dear dmb,
Hmm, interesting example. In the USA, I'd say the more common mistake is using the past tense when the present perfect is "grammatically correct". This happens a lot on TV, especially, it seems, during sports events when the action, begun in the past, is still going on.

e.g. "Uh-oh, looks like Starr fumbled the ball. It's rolling around and no one grabbed it yet."

But it all depends on context, doesn't it? Your example, for some reason, reminded me of that old fairy-tale - "Goldilocks and the Three Bears". When the bears return to their cottage, Baby Bear discovers -

1. "Somebody has been eating my porridge, and has eaten it all up!"

And Mama Bear sees -

2. "Somebody has been sitting in my chair!"

While Papa Bear observes -

3. "Somebody has been lying in my bed!"

Now this could be the pesent perfect continuous, used for an action completed in the recent past, the effects of which are still apparent:

e.g.

A: Joe, why are you breathing so hard?

B: Oh, I've been running.

And this would appear to fit in with your example about the classroom. The funny thing, however, is that it seems to me to "sound right" only when the "subject" of the action is unknown. So, instead of -

"Hamad has moved chairs" ( which doesn't "sound right" to me ).

"The chairs have been moved" (which does).

You know, at first I wondered if tubig was writing about the use of

"have/has got"

in British English to denote usual ownership. We Yanks say -

"I have a car"

whereas I THINK British English would more likely be -

"I've got a car"

That ISN'T the present perfect, of course, but it surely LOOKS like it, and I suspect it may be confusing to SOME students.
Regards,
John

[shmooj]

Are you so sure, Johnslat, that it isn't present perfect? It fits the pattern i.e. a past event with present results. IOW, in the past I acquired a car, as you can see by the fact that we are sitting in it = I've got a car.

It's only in the last few weeks actually, due to some class situations re this that I have come to wonder whether the British way of indicating possession is actually present perfect.

[johnslat]

Dear shmooj,
Hmm, interesting point - I'd never thought about it that way. My problem with that "interpretation" though would be that I believe the present perfect tenses do not extend into future time - they cover only past and - often - present time. So, can you use the present perfect to cover all three times: past, present AND future? And, if so, wouldn't that overlap a function of the present simple?
Regards,
John

[mjed9]

I think the main difference is that British tend to use the PP more often

As a British national I would tend to say

For example

"I have eaten" and ask the question "have you eaten?"

"I have forgotten"

I think the tendency in America is to use the simple past

"Did you eat already?"

"Sorry I forgot"

I don't think there is a difference in the actual grammar point just usage.