Job Discussion Forums

[M@tt]

Any advice on how to cope with this (inside and outside of the classroom)? Not only do a large percentage of my students cheat, copy, and lie to me about having done it (one student challenged me in class after I returned his exam with a low mark for cheating, and I had to explain exactly how obvious he had been about it), but within hours of meeting people I often learn that they are cheating on their spouse. Sometimes they share the information with me without any sense of guilt, and without my asking, and without us really even knowing each other! Mexicans assure me that this is a natural side effect of marriage and totally unavoidable. Then there's robbery. In less than three months I've had things stolen from me three times, and I live in a city of about 10,000 people where everyone knows everyone. The campus itself is only 700 students but this didn't stop someone from stealing my shoes from the locker room. Yesterday a group of teenagers I thought I was on friendly terms with stole my backpack, full of student essays, a notebook with all my lesson plans for the entire semester, and nothing else. I knew one of them had it but when I asked they basically insulted me, told me to return to my country, etc. Ah, then they told me I'm a fag.

In the US there is an unfair stereotype that Mexicans are lazy. It's ridiculous because most of the Mexicans there are slaving away to make money. In Mexico, the defining quality of my experience so far has not been laziness, but dishonesty. It's really wearing. Today I feel depressed, feel like I hate my students, and am still recovering from being robbed by people I was formerly buying food and drinks for. My host family tells me, "Too bad, but get used to it. It's a necessary part of life." Yes, that's what nearly all the Mexicans I know seem to think. Does anyone have more helpful advice for dealing with this part of culture shock?

Wondering if I'm in the wrong country or the wrong life...
Matt
p.s. Please don't respond with stupid emails about how there is also dishonesty in the US.

[MELEE]

Matt,

I love Mexico and I love my life in Mexico, BUT...

You very well may be in the wrong country or the wrong life--or at the very least the wrong part of Mexico for you.

In the nearly six years that I've lived and worked in Mexico, I've worked with about 40 different teachers and at least twenty of them were not cut out for life here. Some of them stayed just 6 months or a year and knew it was time to move on and will probably remember Mexico foundly. Others just couldn't see that they were not ment to be here and stayed on becoming more and more misserable which then unavoidably spread to make the people around them misserable. One of them will probably respond to this message (Hi Mike )

The thing that amazes me about the Mexican character is that they read someone right off the bat and respond to them based on that initial recation to them. The same shop keeper who will bend over backwards being nice to me, will do all but spit on my co-worker and call him a pinche Americano (He's actually Australian, but that doesn't matter here). But you know what--he calls them dirty Indios so I quess what goes around comes around.

Even my (Mexican) husband, who is one of the most personable people I've ever met, goes all prickely at the sight of certain people that he has preconvieced notions about. Our small city has an elite upper class decended from the Spanish landholders who own most of the property around the zocalo and there for run all the nice restuarants that I like to go to. My husband doesn't like going there. He hates the thought of giving money to "those people" whom he thinks "treat the rest of us like dirt". Well, this is an example of how they treat us. One time we were at a restuarant and he left his sweater there. We didn't return until at least 6 weeks later. As soon as we walked in the door, the manager (part of "the family") pulled his sweater out from behind the bar and brought it over to us. This is a small town--but not that small. I've told him that if they truely treated him like dirt, they would have swept up his sweater and thrown it out.

The point of all of this, is that, IMHO, Mexicans react to you based on the perception they have of you. Is there anything you can do about it? Maybe, but it might be easier to move to another town and start over. There may have been some horrible person there before who happened to be a gringo and they assume you are like him.

You probably run your classes a lot differntly than your students' other teachers run theirs. They probably see you as somebody who was born with a leg up, and for them, cheating is an attempt to balance the scales, then you publicly put the cheater "back in his place". Its like kicking a starving dog who is trying to get something out of your garbage. Also throughout Latin America, cheating, or at least letting others cheat off of you is a way to show friendship, you have to help you buddy out. Not helping your friend on the test would be like not giving your friend bus fare home if he was out of money. If you said, "yeah, I've got two pesos, but you'll never learn to budget if you don't walk home", do you think people would like you?

[lozwich]

M@tt,

You are not the only one having a bad day. I'm not suffering from culture shock just now, but I do really really want to go home at the moment. This seems to be just part of the experience, and its important to ride it out, if you want to stay.

As for the cheating on spouses bit, I've just resolved never to get involved in that situation myself. I don't want to be cheated on, or be part of some situation where others (not to mention myself) can get hurt. But, unlike what I would do in my home country, if I was to find out about someone's infidelity, I would not feel that it was my responsibility to tell the unwitting third party. Tricky, but something I need to do for my own sanity.

Theft is awful. When I am in Mexico (and now, when I am anywhere) I try to reduce the opportunity for theft. I don't leave my stuff lying around where it can be taken away, I lock or hide things away. I don't make overt displays of what might be perceived as wealth. And I try to do all of that without becoming so paranoid that I think everyone is after my stuff.

Hope that helps. Have a good day,

Lozwich.

[dduck]

[MixtecaMike]

[Ben Round de Bloc]

I've only had the experience of living in 2 countries: my "home country" (USA) and Mexico. Even more limiting, within those 2 countries I've only lived in 2 states in the USA and one state/city in Mexico. I found the adjustment similar in many ways when I moved from one state to another in the USA and when I moved from the USA to Mexico.

Many (most?) Mexicans have their prejudices and stereotypes of gringos. All gringos are rich is a prime example. They also have their prejudices and stereotypes of other Mexicans from different parts of the country, social classes, ethnic backgrounds within the country, etc. For example, in the part of the country where I live, everything bad that happens is the fault of chilangos who have moved here. Thus, as others have mentioned, Mexicans judge people and form opinions of them rather quickly, and these opinions are often based on rather flimsy evidence.

Based on my experiences here, I tend to believe that toughness and astuteness are seen as positive qualities. It's the strong and the smart who survive and prosper. Those are the people who are respected. Someone who is too kind, too generous, too trusting, and too caring might be viewed as a nice person but rather weak and not very astute. It's okay to try to take advantage of him (lie to him, cheat him, and steal from him.) If he's smart, he won't let you get away with it. If he's not so smart, then he deserves to be taken advantage of. It's nice to be liked, but it's better to be respected (or at least have the appearance of being respected.) A Mexican may not like someone who has lied to him and gotten away with it, but deep down he holds a certain amount of respect for the person for his skill in pulling it off. Which person is more astute, the one who suffers because of the lie, or the one who prospers because of the lie?

There's an old story, which I can't recall word for word, but the gist of it is this. There was an old rancher who hired lots of workers over the years. Fathers of fathers of workers in the little pueblo had worked for this rancher in their day. The rancher never became wealthy, but he was always fair with his workers. He paid them more than the going rate. He accepted their excuses when they didn't work as long or as hard as they could have. At times he lent them money that they never got around to paying back. They sometimes took things from the ranch, and never returned them. The old rancher died, and almost everyone in the pueblo turned out for his funeral, because it was the proper thing to do. After almost everyone had left the cemetary, two old codgers stood for a moment looking down at the grave. One of them said, "He was a nice man, but he was very stupid." The other nodded in agreement.

As for cheating, I see it as a part of life for many/most who are successful in this part of the country. Anyone who's successful in business cheats on his income taxes. If a client/customer doesn't need a nota, cash goes from hand to pocket, and the transaction isn't listed as income. If a contractor doesn't grease the palm of someone along the way, he'll wait 10 years for a building permit. The list goes on and on.

Most of the students in our program would cheat if given the opportunity. Those who don't need to cheat would be considered real jerks if they refused to let someone cheat off of them. Exams have to be monitored with an eagle eye. Students aren't embarrassed if caught trying to cheat. Students pay others to do their required homework. They copy written assignments directly from the internet and try to pass them off as their own work. They find a doctor (friend or family member) to write a false medical excuse (excused absence) for them to miss class, just as many teachers do in order to miss work and have it count as sick leave.

I'm not saying that, as foreigners with different ways of viewing things, we should lie, cheat, and steal to try to fit in. Yet, if you are the type of person who's really bothered by these sorts of things, I think it would be very difficult to live here for any length of time.

[seanie]

Hey Matt,

Perhaps you need to move on. I'm not suggesting leaving the country yet...but maybe scout around for a new city. I don't know where in Veracruz you are, but I hope it's not Xalapa. It's a bit wet and hazy, but I lived there for one year and found it quite a civilized and cultured city. As far as "corruption" goes, I do believe there is a lot of it; but it's never been my experience that people think I'm stupid because I won't make money by selling exam papers to students (Yes, I've been asked.) Being "decente" is admired in this culture just as it is - I'd imagine - in most places. But Mexico is a fairly large country, and each region has its own unique character. Perhaps you just landed in a very tough spot. Check around in the ITESM system. They've got campuses all over. Good luck!

[khmerhit]

Might is Right. Respect the strong. The weak deserve it. The rich are better. The poor are bad. Get what you can. Screw the system. Foreigners out: They're stealing our jobs, they're prostitutes and thieves.

Sounds like Cambodia!

[Belmont]

[M@tt]

that was an interesting little digression. i'm not sure what it had to do with the original discussion though.
thanks for the responses. i'm in an area that might not be well-suited to my n european/american personality, because it is essentially carribean. i've been told by mexicans that veracruz is the friendliest state in the country. maybe this friendliness leads to the feeling that it's okay to 'borrow' anything that happens to be lying around--backpacks, money, women, etc. at this point i've lowered my expectations and grown a little, and feel more secure about my personal belongings. i certainly don't leave things lying around for more than a couple seconds.

as for cheating, my students this semester are marginally better than last, but i am also working on ways to cheat-proof my class. this may not be totally possible, but in the future i will probably have them write all essay first drafts in class (perhaps as part of a larger exam). when we work on revising the essays later, at least the original will be original, not some crap they copied off the internet or had a friend write for them. i've also taken to making multiple versions of exams, which is extra work and at times very confusing, but it has cut down on some cheating. homework is another issue--they can cheat all they want, and i've told them there's no way for me to stop them but that it will end up hurting them on the exam. in fact, i more or less pull exam questions from the homework. if they've done it thoughtfully, they will recognize things and know how to answer. if they copied without thinking, they will be seeing each question for the first time and it will be quite difficult.

i had an excellent math teacher in highschool who hated grading homework. rather than bothering to collect and check every students' homework (probably impossible anyway), he had us check our own answers from the key and ask questions in class about anything we didn't understand. then he would give frequent surprise quizzes that were essentially "in 5 minutes, copy down all your work for the following problems from your homework" and there would be about 3 problems. you could only do it in time if you had completed all your homework, and you never knew which 3 questions, of the hundreds that week, he would choose, so all of us did and checked all of them.

i have to say i learned a lot in that class, but this system probably only works with math, because on the quiz you had to copy the steps that led you to the answer, while on the key you only saw the answer. so just copying the correct answer onto the quiz got you no credit at all, you had to show all the work leading up to it. i wish i could do the same thing with english. any ideas how that might work?

i really do like it here in cordoba/fortin, by the way, but i'm thinking about moving to another location where there is more intellectual nutrition, like queretaro or morelia. it would be a nice bonus if the people there had more integrity than here, but i'm not really counting on it, and i think i can live with that.

p.s. most of you didn't offer me suggestions for coping with this aspect of culture shock, you just confirmed my bad feelings!!! but thanks all the same.

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[Samantha]

I have been teaching here on the Pacific coast for some time. I seriously had to adjust my attitude or I would not have survived as a teacher. I have seen teachers come and go. I have found the priorities here to be as follows: Family, Friends, Work and then School. School at any level here is just NOT that rigid and you have to work with it and enjoy the experience - find some good in it. You can't change the world as we know it here in Mexico. I once caught my university class cheating on another teacher's exam. When I walked into the classroom I saw them writing on their desk tops with pencil. When I inquired what they were up to THEY TOLD ME. They were "writing notes to help with an exam" later in the day. I laughed at them and said, well don't try that with me or we will be changing classrooms to do the English exam. They thought my threat was hilarious, but they didn't know if I was serious or not. I try to use humor in situations like that, but they also have to respect your authority. Once you start having such big problems with the students, it is definitely time for a change of scenery for you. Try to learn from your past experience, and lighten up just a little.

By the way, I haven't found theft a problem at all here, in or out of the classroom, nor have I noticed a big difference in the monogomous rules in married life here. The modern brides I have met do not put up with a cheating spouse and definitely not vice versa. That seems clear. My Mexican husband understands this, so do all his male relatives.

[Guy Courchesne]

Speaking on all the Americans, Canadians, Australian, and Brits I've brought into Mexico to work, I've seen two very general categories of people regarding culture. One group believes their cultural beliefs are correct and try to change those around them. The other group accepts what they see and change themselves to operate within it. Guess which type of person last all of 2 weeks in Mexico?

Too many of us are taught in our countries that OUR WAY is best, and that everyone wants to be like us. I've noticed that those wo cope with the cultural changes best are those that can laugh, learn, and adapt.

Funny...I've been here over three years now in Mexico. I feel far less Canadian, though not quite Mexican of course. What a great place to be, outside your own culture and not quite in someone else's, aware of the difference. But, hey, that's the realreason we're here isn't it?

BR de B, you know about this with all your years in the Yuc. Sientes como Yucateco, guey?

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[thelmadatter]

Women have nights out with their girlfriends and end up in mixed groups at some night spot, or they have house parties with male strippers who do more than just strip for an extra fee, of course. I'm not saying these diversions are the norm, but they happen much more frequently than one would probably imagine.


REEEEAAAALLLLYYYYYY now!!!!!!!! So tell me, when can I come down for a visit!!!