Job Discussion Forums

[dmb]

Come on Ghost there must be something you like about Turkey. It's no secret that I love Turkey and most things Turkish.
However at the mo I'm in Qatar and I am no huge fan of the ME. I never ask students questions that I'm not prepared to answer myself. So I'll say the positive things about Qatar and then you say some positive things about Turkey.OK?
1) $$$$$$ The reason for coming here.
2) I've met some wonderful people who i hope will be friends for life( fellow teachers)
3) Done loads of sport and got fit.
4) Learned new teaching skills( babysitting and riot control)
5) Discovered this is a culture/part of the world that I don't want to spend a long period of time in.

There must be some things about Turkey you like.
List them

[ghost]

There is very little to keep one in this dull country but here are some positives.

1. The weather in some places on the South Coastal areas is decent in winter with some days of sunshine. Good for running and basketball.

2. The food is excellent in Turkey with plenty of variety and tasty and pretty healthy (favourite is patlican/mousaka and fasulye). They are quite generous in Restaurants and usually give one a little side salad. Mercimek �orba - a great way to start the day (like the Turkish workers who eat this for breakfast).

3. Most Turks are decent people on a superficial level. It is a safe country and you can walk everywhere at night without the risk of assault. This was not the case in some of the previous places where one worked (Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Dominican, Ecuador, Brazil).

4. Relatively close to other European countries making travel easy at non peak periods.

5. Relatively non stress working environment in the Language schools (not the dreaded k-12's though!) with easy money for what you deliver. The work, in general, though, is one big yawn, because most Turkish students lack imagination and are not able to think critically and outside the conventional format of Book/Teacher/Delivery/Exercise.

Unfortunately the down sides of Turkey far outweigh the few good aspects. And one does not stay in a country just because the food and weather are good...or one may as well go to Zimbabwe then...

On a permanent basis though, all the annoying habits of Turks and their basic lack of culture and intelligence grinds you down until only your inner core is left intact. It is an incredibly boring and repetitious life that one leads here. The Turks in their vast majority are not interesting people and this makes it difficult to stay because meaningful communication between foreigners and Turks is very difficult to achieve. The dialogue between Turks and foreigners is stereotypical and wearisome....always those same inane questions....(what are we to the Turks anyway...a bunch of clowns with backpacks, right?).

[dmb]

That was positive?

[FGT]

Ghost - I think dmb was a bit unfair. I think you did well to voice so many positive things about Turkey, pity it became negative towards the end.

Would it be possible for you to rant (negatively) elsewhere? And keep this thread open for positive coments only? It's good to know you've got some positive comments to make. Otherwise I would have to conclude that you were seriously masochistic. But you're not, are you? There are things you enjoy about being in Turkey. If not, you wouldn't choose to stay, would you? You are a rational, intelligent person. You've got lots of qualifications and experience, you could find work ( more fulfilling at that) elsewhere. The only reason you stay must be that you want to be here, n'est ce pas?

[misterkodak]

I'm still trying to figure out why Ghost is still in Turkey. Just for the record, I am not a backpacker, nor did I return to Turkey (yes, read that right "RETURN") after my time the in the military (adana/incirlik, Murted) for a "good time" or to "earn money. I could do both back in the states with no problem... maybe even easier than in Turkey. Given the natures of both the ESL field, and the Turkish economy, it would be stupid to think that one could make money in Turkey. I'm not rich but I am far from poor.
I lived in Turkey for almost 8 years.. military time included. My wife and kids are Turkish. My family situation is similar to the one Yaramaz described. NO, I DID NOT CHANGE MY RELIGION. NO IT WASN'T MY INTENTION TO MARRY A TURK. These things just happen. My wife's family has been very accepting. They are Almanci and returned to Turkey from Germany after livign and working there for over 25 years. My brother and sister in law still live here with their families.
At the present, I am here in Eastern Germany. My wife and kids are still in Turkey waiting to come over. We decided to move back to Germany because we feel more comfortable here and feel that the education system here offers more to our children than it does in Turkey. We speak German at home.
I really think Ghost needs to see a good shrink and get his paranoia and percieved xenophobia treated. I had a few anti-foreigner experiences in Turkey but I also had them back home in the US, and here in Germany.
Do you really think people are going to kiss your backside because of the language you speak or country where you come from? For someone who has been around as much as Ghost ... I find it strange that he/she/it is so negative and so closed minded. So.. you have one Turkish friend who thinks all yabanci carry backpacks, throw money around, drink alot, and take Turkish jobs. So what? Ask someone in the UK or North America what they think of ..... (insert desired nationality here).. and I am sure you would probably get the same answers from alot of them. I can't think that a handful of people can speak for an entire country.
My wife and I did break down and buy a digiturk setup mainly because we want our children to watch television in English. During the time I spent in Turkey before I got married, I didn't have a television. I mainly got my news from shortwave and from Turkish newspapers.
Maybe ghost needs to get out of the big cities and spend some time in small towns and villages. I couldn't deal with Istanbul (I hate to admit it but ghost is right about backpackers and ripoff schools) so, I moved to a small town in Northern Turkey. I never regretted it. No foreigners, everyone knows me (it may sound arrogant but I do have a reputation as a decent teacher), and I felt appreciated. After my time in the military and the ESL industry, I have learned that any place is what you make of it.
Be happy in Turkey. Yabanci can still find jobs. Here in Eastern Germany getting decent ESL jobs is like pulling teeth. I got laid off by a firm a month after I got here. I honestly feel that my standard of living was higher there, than it is here. My Euro salary doesn't seem to go as far here as what my salary in Turkey did. Turks may cheat you out of money but never your entire livelihood. Take the good with the bad and chalk it up as experience.. or move on if you don't like it.

[ghost]

No - one does not enjoy being here at all. But this poster made a bet back in September with his step dad that he would fulfil the contract and stay for the duration. Also, a matter of family pride. One does not just give up like that. The negatives will turn into positives in the future because one learns more from the negatives. Needless to say the experience here will not be repeated.

Language: This poster wanted to learn a 7th language and this is being fulfilled. (Previous - Fr, Ger, Sp, It, Por, Tagalog). T�mer 2 level was passed on December 4 with 85%.

The environment in the particular town where this poster is teaching is depressing. Cold, windy and sleet and snow for the past few days, making just the act of walking in the street dangerous because the 'Belediye' does not have the funds to clear up the mess.

Furthermore, as already mentioned on another thread, a contract has been signed. There is a one month notice clause and this might be used at some point in the not too distant future.

This poster might come accross as negative, but at least honesty and integrity are a part of the makeup.

[dmb]

In learning a language both intrinsic and extrinsic motivation are necessary. Motivation means being positive. How many people believe that Ghost can speak 7 languages?
Can Ghost proove that he can speak the aforementioned languages and translate the following in all of these languages.
"My name is Ghost. I lead a boring meaningless life and the only excitement I get is by trying to flame people who try to give sound advice to people who are trying to help others"

[Byzantine]

[dmb]

I try hard to ignore his negativity but I don't want him to put people off coming to Turkey and missing out on a fantastic opportunity.

[Byzantine]

[RoseMarie]

I know this thread is old, but I'm curious...

Ghost, did you say that you went to Marseille to teach in one of the threads? You also mentioned Northern Spain. You seemed to think that it is better in Spain and France than in Turkey.

I teach in the Parisian suburbs of Creteil, and the students can be pretty unruly. My class is not obligatory, and I only have small groups of 2-5 students that have close contact with me and intense interaction so they are very well behaved and friendly. But other teachers talk about students being extremely rude. Attendance has been somewhat of a problem for me, but the small core groups of students I have left now come on a regular basis. As for Turkish people making trite conversation, I have to answer the same stupid, ignorant questions over and over again from the French people as well. Sometimes I want to smack them. My students thankfully, are much more genuinely interested in what I have to say then most of the other French people who just want to find a good excuse to make fun of American people.

I was in Turkey for three months and I found people to be much more open minded and friendly, then where I currently live. I don't know but something doesn't seem right between what you say about Turkish people and my own experience with them. It might depend on who you're dealing with, and what sector of society, etc... but I've always found Turks to be so sophisticated and civilized.

Cheating on tests was mentioned in a thread: This was common when I studied in one of the Universities in Spain. I've seen my students do it very blatantly in France as well.

As for the noise level, I kind of like knowing that people are alive. France is such a quiet country. But then again, it would be disturbing in a classroom. I like it that my students in Paris listen attentively while I talk. I guess there are tradoffs.

By the way, rote learning and memorization is a common teaching strategy in France as well. Despite the fact that some of my students have been studying English for six years and can read and write, they have a difficult time actually conversing. My students seemed surprised that I expected them to talk in class, although they have all made a genuine effort to think of something to say, even if only "I agree with so and so."

You've said several times that people in Turkey smoke too much. Ha! They smoke much less than in Spain. France and Turkey can probably compete.

All in all, I like teaching. I like my students. I wonder if these problems with students aren't encountered all over the world to varying degrees. I shudder at the thought of teaching in a Los Angeles high school, for example.

Ironically, my students come from established English classes and the ones that I was warned would be problem students were all wonderful and participated the most. I think it has something to do with my personality that they were able to connect to. (I was a very troubled teen). It also seems to me that the better behaved students are usually the most brainwashed ones.

I loved Turkey when I was there and would love to go back. I wonder how much of the difficulties are due to trying to force your cultural norms onto the students? They do have a different value system. There must be some way to meet them at their level?

Does anyone have any ideas? Comments?

[Otterman Ollie]

İt seems to me that whenever this guy has something to say we alll look at it with a jaundiced eye and make assumptions about this unhappy poster .
I get the feeling that our mutal friend(?) is running away from something that he had a problem dealing with in Turkey, instead of confronting it and turning it around to a positive situation he chose to tuck tail and run ,he will carry on this sad course until a relative feels he has earned the right to return home where ever that may be ,what a sad and sorry waste that is .

[RoseMarie]

Someone in France was trying to explain some concept to me called a 'process d'intention' or something like that (I'm not sure how it's spelled). I don't know if I understood because it's very cultural, but apparently it's when someone gets mad at you and starts yelling about something random, so you're all confused and don't know what their problem is. But in reality, it wasn't that thing at all that was making them mad, but something else entirely that they don't know how, or don't want to express. So they go on and on about a completely different thing.

For example (it's just an example, because I have no idea), let's say someone doesn't like living in a country with a large Muslim population, but it goes against their values to admit that they have a bias against any particular religion. Instead they say that all of the people in this country are lazy, etc...
It could be conscious or unconscious.

[ghost]

DMB casts doubt on my claim to proficiency in seven languages. An explanation is in order.

1. Born to a French mother and British father. As both English and French were spoken in the home, one grew up as a classic "bilingual" child, and that will apply to everyone in that situation. If you are brought up with parents of different languages plus a nanny of a third language, you will acquire 3 languages.... So French and English.

2. German - Spent around one year in Austria, when very young, with Austrian caretakers. This enabled one to gain fluency in German language without any trouble. Remember language learning is greatly facilitated by full immersion when young ('blank slate concept').

3. Spanish. First went to Cuernavaca, Mexico, for my first post grad. studies in Spanish, in 1983. Gained intermediate level during the 3 month intensive stay, supplemented with California State University Spanish course.

Followed by studies in Spanish at the University of Costa Rica, San Jose, Costa Rica, in 1993. The total fluency came after a one year contract teaching English in Guatemala (Quetzaltenango) at the San Juan Bosco school in 1995. A Mexican athletics team to Montreal in 2002 refused to believe that one was not a native speaker. They believed one to be of Argentinian or Chilian origin.

4. Italian - Spent 6 months intensive course for Italian studies in 1986 in Firenze, Italy. This was allied to a home stay and sports course, where one was in contact only with Italian speakers. Worked in the catering field in London for a couple of years where Italian was the language of communication.

5. Portuguese - Several months were spent in North East Brazil working with street kids, in 1994. This was preceded by a crash course in Portuguese at the University of Bahia, Salvador, North East Brazil. When you work all day with street kids for several months, you gain fluency in the language very quickly, especially if you are already proficient in other Romance languages.

6. Turkish - Spent a total of about 7 months in Turkey, living, working and studying the language. Took Tomer 1 and 2 levels, and within those registers, one possesses good fluency....Gained 87% and 85% at both levels of Turkish.

The vast majority of Turks always ask me how many years (not months) one has been living in Turkey, and that is an indication of the level attained.

7. One also has elementary level skills in Tagalog language (Philippines) and can express all the daily needs and other at that level.

The keys to language learning are a combination of motivation, the right locales, and access to native speakers. The basic key is risk taking and you yourself 'using' the language on a daily basis.

Ghost is presently learning Sinhala language.

[scot47]

Ghost !

Where did you pick up this weird mannerism of talking about yourself in the third person ?

One is not amused !