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Tracer
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 65
Location: Warszawa, PL
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 Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:29 pm Post subject: ZUS Rant |
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I went down to the ZUS office the other day and asked them why I should have to pay ZUS. I smiled and told them: "I'm not a Polish citizen and won't ever be able to take a grosz out of ZUS, so why should I be forced to put money in?" Then I made an puppy dog innocent look like this:  and flared out my lower lip.
I also enthusiastically offered to sign a waiver stating that I would never take a grosz out of ZUS if they agreed to exempt me from payment. 
"No dice," said the former communist department head; sporting her Stalinistic, communist bureaucrat power haircut and shoulder pads. 
One of the other ladies in the office smiled warmly and handed me a brochure with a picture of a waving American flag on the front. She went on to explain that I shouldn't worry because; "the Polish government has an agreement in place with the US whereby ZUS payments can be transferred to your social security back in America!" 
I guess I should be glad that I can move money from one government's ponzi scheme to the other. "Don't worry, you can take your money out of our Polish blackhole and transfer it to your American black hole any time you like. See how free you are to play by our rules!"
Why can't governments trust us to provide for our own retirement!? Talk about global tyranny. I can't wait until these government ponzi schemes implode on themselves. It will be much harder for governments to get away with this kind of BS in the future. People will understand.
And that concludes my rant. |
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scottie1113
Joined: 25 Oct 2004
Posts: 375
Location: Gdansk
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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And it was a rant.
As a legal employee of a school here I don't have to open my own company, so although I pay taxes, I don't pay ZUS, thank God.
And in November I'll be eligible for social security. It's not a black hole at all, nor is it a Ponzi scheme.
If you want to provide for your own retirement, set aside 10% of your earnings every month, take advantage of your 401k if you're in the US, invest wisely, and you'll be fine. Of course, all these plans can be derailed by unforeseen situations like a messy, expensive divorce, loss of your job, etc, but you get my drift. |
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dynow
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1080
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:44 am Post subject: |
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ZUS......yeah, it's a joke.
i lose a little piece of my soul every time I make that 800zl transfer each month.
money i'll never see again. money that's buying some retired old man his bread and kielbasa for the month.
ZUS is going to last for a long time. too many people that retired in their 40's and 50's during the communist era, sitting around in poor health in their shoebox apts., and if the government doesn't pay for them, they'll all die. and that would be smelly.
the system has no chance of changing till all the old commies die. |
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dynow
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1080
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| take advantage of your 401k if you're in the US |
from one american to another, you know 401K's are BS. a myth.
yeah sure, give my company a percentage of my paycheck every 2 weeks so they can invest it as they see fit, and MAYBE it will amount to more money in the future. as for the people in america today, their 401K's dried up completely. people lost their shirts due to 401K failures.
i trust my own investment intuition more than some corporation that will just throw it into this black hole investment plan and make you feel better by saying, "we'll match what you put in" or some garbage like that.
| Quote: |
| set aside 10% of your earnings every month |
that's the only sure bet. |
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sparks
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 632
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: |
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I work for schools approved by the Ministry of Education here in Warsaw and have been contemplating shutting down my "business". I know that you don't need a work permit to work for Ministry schools. Does anyone have any experience with getting a karta pobytu with just a contract and a paper saying that your school is approved (as well as all the other insurance, tax forms etc, of course) .
I think that the savings in taxes and ZUS would make it worth while. I know that on an umowa o dzielo for a Polish person you pay very little in tax and no ZUS. |
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scottie1113
Joined: 25 Oct 2004
Posts: 375
Location: Gdansk
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| sparks, yes, I did that two years ago. Got my karta pobytu with a contrac`t from my school and a few other documents. I'm waiting now for the decision and it'll be approved, this time for two years. |
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Blasphemer
Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 199
Location: NYC/Warszawa
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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I am in the process of transferring my SS savings into the Polish ZUS with 10 years of employment it's not much, but it's always something.
It's true, the US and Poland just recently signed this agreement, most attorneys in Poland are not even aware of that and I had to do some research on my own but it TECHNICALLY is not money lost... or so they say.
401K is a bunch of huey, I was lucky enough to invest in my old company which allowed me to save couple of bucks, but even that taxed twice. [there goes the entire - no double taxation... another constitutional right taken away]
Your best bet is to invest you money... any investment is a risk, but at the same time, it's better than hoping for a governmental hand out when it's too late to try anything else. |
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hrvatski
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| Move to Australia |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| scottie1113 wrote: |
set aside 10% of your earnings every month |
If you are 20, that may pan out. I think the rule of thumb often bandied around in the UK is to halve your starting age ... and use that as a percentage to invest.
So if you are 40 when you start ... that 10% isnt going to cut it ... it needs to be 20%, which in turn should provide a pension that will be similar in value to a job that pays minimum wage. A 40 year old investing 10% is going to be in line for a pension that pays the same as a two 8 hour shifts in McDonalds each week. |
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Tracer
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 65
Location: Warszawa, PL
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| scottie1113 wrote: |
And it was a rant.
And in November I'll be eligible for social security. It's not a black hole at all, nor is it a Ponzi scheme.
If you want to provide for your own retirement, set aside 10% of your earnings every month, take advantage of your 401k if you're in the US, invest wisely, and you'll be fine. Of course, all these plans can be derailed by unforeseen situations like a messy, expensive divorce, loss of your job, etc, but you get my drift. |
Scottie, I appreciate your dissenting viewpoint. A year ago, before extensive research on my part, I would have agreed with you and I would have been outraged by the statement that "social security is a ponzi scheme." I don't want to lecture or to try to convince you or anyone else that social security is in fact a ponzi scheme, I'll simply put forth the characteristics of a ponzi scheme and you, or anyone else, can tell me (after your own research) how social security is different:
1. The fund manager takes custody of funds from the investor.
2. The money in the fund or scheme is not invested by the manager, instead, the money of the second line of investors is used to pay the first line of investors. (Sound familiar?)
3. Eventually, when the scheme becomes too large, and can not attract enough new participants, it implodes in a Madoff scenario.
The reason why social security is worse than Madoff is that Madoff never forced anyone to pay into his scheme. Becoming an investor in the Madoff scheme was always voluntary for US citizens. The same cannot be said of social security.
It sounds like you got in early, so you might actually get something back, but the workers of my generation are paying you ; and when it comes time for us to retire, we're going to get screwed.
Social security and ZUS are the government's way of saying: "You're not smart enough to provide for your own retirement. We have to do it for you." Unfortunately, rather than do that, after they make their monthly distributions to recipients like you and others, they spend the surplus social security funds as soon as they can (hence my black hole analogy).
America's social security fund will implode. It's a sure thing. This is a mathematical reality and not a political idea or ideology.
or . . .
If it does not implode, the government will monetize debt in order to fund increasingly large shortfalls and all proceeding payments to recipients, while the same in terms of their nominal value, will decrease in their real value. (Depending on how old you are, there is a good chance that you will get to experience this scenario). If the government does this, your generation will continue to receive their payments for x amount of dollars per month, but the x dollars will buy you less and less for the simple reason that all of the governments money printing would exponentially increase the money supply and thus further devalue the dollar. This is the invisible tax inflation, hard at work.
Don't take my word for it. Check out this video by Chris Martenson (PhD neurotoxicology from Duke, MBA from Cornell University and ten years of experience in corporate finance):
http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/chapter-13-national-failure-save
If Martenson's qualifications are not enough for you, please consider I.O.U.S.A. starring David Walker (former comptroller general of the USA, effectively the nation's top accountant):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_TjBNjc9Bo
I wish it weren't true. I'd much rather you be right, scottie. I would be very relieved if you or someone else could show me some data that would clearly demonstrate that social security is in fact sound and will pay off. In my understanding, it's a compulsory wealth transfer from one generation to the next, in which the government get's to skim off the top of in the form of raiding the surplus (effectively: interest free loans by the public to the government in exchange for devalued dollars in the future).
It's a robbery by the state, for the state. The republic of the United States stands because the founding fathers were opposed to such inequitable wealth transfers and schemes.
Please don't take any of this personally. I'm arguing an idea, not a person. I'm sure you're a great guy. Review the data and make your own conclusions.
I'm operating under the assumption that I won't get anything back from social security or ZUS. If I'm wrong I'll be stoked!  Enjoy spending our money.  |
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scottie1113
Joined: 25 Oct 2004
Posts: 375
Location: Gdansk
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Oh, I will!  You do make some very good points. You're right; it is a transfer of wealth from one generation to another, but please remember that I've been paying into the system since 1965.
Anyway, I'm not worried about receiving the money, just about what a fixed income will buy in the long run. It's called inflation. I'll work until I'm physically unable to because I enjoy it and can't bear the thought of retirement. That seems like a slow death to me. |
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dynow
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1080
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:59 am Post subject: |
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what do you call working into your 70's and even 80's then?
a quick death? |
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scottie1113
Joined: 25 Oct 2004
Posts: 375
Location: Gdansk
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Since I really like what I'm doing, I call it enjoyable, but that's just me. I'm anything but a workaholic as my beer drinking, poker playing friends will attest. |
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Tracer
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 65
Location: Warszawa, PL
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| scottie1113 wrote: |
Oh, I will! You do make some very good points. You're right; it is a transfer of wealth from one generation to another, but please remember that I've been paying into the system since 1965.
Anyway, I'm not worried about receiving the money, just about what a fixed income will buy in the long run. It's called inflation. I'll work until I'm physically unable to because I enjoy it and can't bear the thought of retirement. That seems like a slow death to me. |
You may want to buy some gold and silver bullion as a hedge in that case. I've advised my parents to do the same and I've bought a little myself. I'm sure you've heard all of the near zealotry of the goldbugs by now, but what they say is true; it's a completely unique asset in that it's nobody else's liability. (There is no counter party risk involved in owning it.) The same goes for silver which could be an even bigger play in the long haul.
Foreign securities, currencies and commodities could also play very well in the medium to long term. In the short term anything could happen.
I can empathize with the experience of paying into the the system for 45 years. I'll never forget the defeated tone in my own mom's voice when I told her that she couldn't count on social security and we were going to have to reinvest her USD denominated savings and investments into assets with a future. It didn't take much explanation. She seemed to know SS was a broken system all along, but, well, everyone else was paying into it and their didn't seem to be any way around it . . . .
Counting on yourself for your retirement funds is the way it should be done in my opinion. Social security was a typical government tactic and one they have continued to repeat since the 30's. They sold social security as good for everyone. In reality it was a sneaky way to increase government tax revenues without raising taxes.
This is what governments do. They hide their money and power grabs in the "we want to help you" cloak (just look at the patriot act). - The current administration is no different. In fact, I have a hard time drawing any lines between the government, wall street and the Federal reserve anymore.
Whatever you do, be certain that the government is going to devalue the shit out of the dollar over the next five years. It's great that you're willing to keep working, but why not hold on to what you've spent your whole life working for?
Two brokerage houses that I'd recommend investigating are:
1. Euro Pacific Capital
http://www.europac.net
Peter Schiff
2. Sitka Pacific
http://www.sitkapacific.com/
Mike Shedlock
I'm more familiar with Euro Pacific and Peter Schiff. Schiff believes we're headed for an inflationary depression. Shedlock thinks it's going to be a deflationary depression. They both have very good points. Personally I think Shedlock is right in the short to medium term and Schiff will ultimately be right in the long term. I'm communicating with Euro pac and so is my mom. My mom will probably open up an account with europac later this month and I'll probably follow suit early next year.
Regards,
Tracer |
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scottie1113
Joined: 25 Oct 2004
Posts: 375
Location: Gdansk
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks tracer. I've seen the gloom and doom gold and silver bugs before in the early 80's when I worked for Dean Witter, and did my fair share of trading foreign currency options in those days, I understand how the markets work.
Inflationary depression. Hmmmm. That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one. |
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