Job Discussion Forums

[harmonica]

I posted this on the Japan forum already but figured I`d try here.

I am trying to decide whether to go to Hong Kong or Japan. I have a BA, a couple of years of business experience in market research, & one year of teaching experience in Korea to elementary and middle school students. I do not have a TEFL certificate, but I can get a CELTA prior to arriving if it will help me land a job. Otherwise, I will read about teaching techniques & principles on my own time. Here are some of my priorities:

I want to teach adults or older teenagers
I want a stable work environment. By that I mean that there aren't many surprise Saturday meetings & the like.
I would like to save at least $500USD/mo. I don't party much & live a fairly frugal lifestyle.
I would like to play in a competitive football (soccer) league. It�s a passion & I only have a few years left where I can still play at a high level.
I would like to have cheap access to high-speed Internet. I'm working on a personal project that will require that I go online rather frequently. I have my own laptop.

Here is a breakdown of what I have gathered so far. If I am incorrect about something, please let me know. From what I have read, saving the kind of money that I would like to save isn't an issue in either country. However, in HK it would be in my best interest to get a CELTA prior to arriving while in Japan it wouldn�t factor in much in terms of helping me land a decent job. You are automatically enrolled in the state healthcare program in HK while in Japan you have to be careful that your employer gives you credit for at least 30 teaching hrs/week so that they do not skirt responsibility for helping pay your healthcare costs. Lastly, there is less xenophobia in HK than in Japan, but they both trump Korea in that regard. I don�t intend to paint people in broad strokes. I am just trying to get an idea of what the social climate is for foreigners in both places. Any insight will be appreciated.

[dandan]

Basically everything on your list is available in both countries and both are perfectly pleasant places to live so it's up to you.

Actually, I would guess that everything on your list is probably available in your country of origin also, so is there any particular reason that you want to teach in HK or Japan?

[harmonica]

The draw is to experience a different culture. Back home I wouldn't be so keen on teaching. It's not that I don't like it, but I have more preferable options from which to choose.

[thefuzz]

[kowlooner]

Surprised there have been so few responses!

First, the CELTA would definitely help in HK, especially if you've only had one year of teaching experience. As for just teaching adults and older teenagers, it depends on the school, but in reality you'll probably need to accept the likelihood of having to teach elementary and middle school students. Again, depends on the place. I would figure that to be the same in Japan too, more or less. Saving money: yes, if you're as frugal as you say. Not because you can't make reasonable money, but your experience will probably mean less pay at the beginning. Housing costs will be the major issue. Internet: broadband ranges from around HK$150 - $300 per month, depending on the package obviously. Reasonably cheap. Soccer: don't play it myself but there seem to be a number of leagues. Check other expat sites for that. Xenophobia, not really an issue.

Good luck.

[harmonica]

Thanks for the reply kowlooner. I am leaning more towards going to Japan at the moment. If there is an aspect I should consider but may have taken it into account let me know. Cheers

[kowlooner]

You're welcome, and best of luck. It really does depend on what you're after. Personally, I figure the quality of life might be more attractive in Japan based on things like air quality, space, cleanliness, quiet etc. On the other hand, you might have longer work commutes in Japan, more difficulty in the beginning with language and getting things done, and if you're into late night night life you'll definitely feel constrained. Hong Kong's pretty much 24/7 (which doesn't really appeal to me now but it might have before). But on yet another hand, the foreign community in HK seems somewhat closed (though that's a broad statement and obviously not necessarily accurate), so despite the potentially shorter social hours in Japan, it might be easier to connect up and have a social life.

Again, best of luck!

[austeacher]

Agreed with thefuzz. There are way too many backpacker putative teachers who are teaching for a quick buck, even if they are not qualified to teach. Their other motive is the attraction to Asian women; the latter aside, to teach you must have a passion for it. If you dislike grammar, reading about it in your spare time or teaching it, then you should not be an ESL teacher. It is as simple as that. To go overseas and teach because it is easier to teach Asians or whatever other nationality is in question is a poor excuse to take a holiday. And If I were an employer and you wanted to teach in Asia, I would mark that down as a criterion for laziness, ambiguity and misdirection. If you are in the teaching game you have to take your students needs seriously, the women come last. Have you heard of business before pleasure?

I wanted to add to the above before but had things to do. I would definitely choose HK over Japan. I was in HK for 2 weeks in 2007 and thought it was awesome. Though everyone has differing opinions when they travel. Japan? I have only been there for 2 days and it was hard to tell anything. If you like a Western appeal then HK has it all. If you enjoy monoculture then Japan is your best bet. However, since as you say you have taught in Sth Korea, I would not expect the attitudes to learning are any different among Asians. I think they all are very determined learners, generally speaking, and will want your blood to earn and learn.

I have found Cantonese, Chinese, to be more open and friendly than the Japanese. The Japanese have a very rigid mind set and are not easily swayed. Whereas I find the Chinese, both Mandarin and Cantonese speakers to be more freindlier. Though we each have our own varying intercultural communicative experiences that shape our bigotted views, myself included.

In the past I have also said that it is very difficult to find a job online and that remains true. It is much easier to be in HK and find a job as employers like to interview in person. On the other hand one can find a Japan job online. My recommendation? Go to Hong Kong, it's awesome and Chinese food is unquestionably better. Hong Kong is cheaper than Japan too. I think to find a reasonably cheap place to live in japan you have to live in Kyushu, Southern japan. Hong Kong and China are much cheaper, but you must try and get accomodation as part of any contract as rents in Hong Kong are high.

For the record, and as every teacher knows, if you have undergone some type of teacher training you will find teaching becomes easier. You are much better off studying for a Diploma of some sort in Education as that will prepare you for the classroom. Those certificates from 'Bob Browns corner shop ESL teacher school' really hold little value in Western countries where auditing procedures and recognised teacher qualifications are endorsed.

As theFuzz said, backpacker teachers lower the earning potential of real teachers who have made it a career, not for the money but because they enjoy it. It is the same case scenario in Australia. There are many International schools in Australia but if I were to work in one of them I will get the same rate of pay as an instructor with a 'Bob Browns teacher certificate'. It was in my interest to study and complete a real teaching diploma because it guarantees me better job options and a higher wage. In the case of international schools, I would have to get the same rate of pay as an instructor with a 3 month certificate, that is absolutely unfair.

My recommendation is Complete a Teaching Diploma of some sort as Hong Kong educational authorities stipulate that. A CELTA is something I would never consider. Besides, If you Harmonica completed a Grad Dip in TESOL or a Grad Dip in Primary or Secondary, your chances of getting a well paid job in a Government approved school in Hong Kong will improve disproportionately. I am saying this because setting a benchmark for a recognised teaching qualification will perpetuate stable and competititive rates of pay, not only in Hong Kong, but Australia too.

I thought I might add that if you choose to work in Asia because the women are pretty that's your choice. I like them too. I would do the same thing if a lucrative opportunity came along but I would not accept a minimum wage overseas especially if one has to adapt to a new currency. It is difficult enough in Australia securing a well paid teaching gig. Nevertheless HK is cool and if my life circumstances were different now I would not hesitate to book a flight and go to Hong Kong even if I didn't have a job lined up in advance. All the best to you.

[oxi]

This harmonica's taking a bit of flak and I'm not sure why.

He says >Back home I wouldn't be so keen on teaching

Neither would I - and I think most of us wouldn't. You all know most TEFL salaries at home are barely above minimum wage, right?

As for qualifications, when I started teaching way back, I started without a CELTA. Better to try first, then fork out cash later. Got it later.

As for grammar, which harmonica never mentioned, I don't exactly love it. But there are plenty of other points in English teaching to make it worth continuing.

austeacher said >There are way too many backpacker putative teachers who are teaching for a quick buck, even if they are not qualified to teach. Their other motive is the attraction to Asian women

True, but we don't know if H. fits into that. We just know he(she?) likes football.

Back to the original point. I think HK's good to teach and live in, but the money sucks without a CELTA. Dunno about Japan

[abudhabi]

I had 3 stints in Japan - 3 months in a language school in Osaka which was downright unprofessional and I resigned - quoting that exact reason. Management and DOS's were not impressed! Returned for 2 years in a language school in Hokkaido - great place. Returned again (with an MATESOL) for 2 years teaching high school in Tokyo - again a great experience. I think the Japanese are a very polite and friendly mob. But the outdoors is also great - fast trains from Tokyo make hiking and skiing within easy reach. I'd recommend Hokkaido for nature lovers. I don't know anything about Hong Kong apart from visiting it for 2 days on a stopover, so can't do any comparisons.

I believe the salaries are not so good these days in Japan - hence my move to the UAE.

[Tiger Beer]

I'm currently teaching in Japan.

Well, I don't think you could go wrong in either Japan or Hong Kong. Both are great places. I think you should target your resumes for both countries and see what opportunities you can find.

I kinda think Japan will have a lot more opportunities than Hong Kong. But I can't think of any reason whatsoever NOT to apply to both.

If you had an outstanding opportunity offered in both countries...then compare those...as if they were in the same country.

Generally though, if you are into languages...and want to learn Japanese, then come to Japan. If you're weak at languages...you might have a bit harder time in Japan, as most people are fairly monolingual.

I've heard that less and less people in Hong Kong are speaking English these days...but for whatever reason, I have a feeling that speaking English in and around HK gets you a lot further than Japan. I also doubt many people in HK will assume you speak Cantonese...and I heard the very english-speaking filipinos/indonesians make something like 2-3% of the HK population now.

But regardless, both places would be great. I really enjoy Japan immensily, but if I had an opportunity to do the exact same job with same pay and everything else in Hong Kong, I'd do it. But I've generally heard that the pay in HK is a lot less.

[haller_79]

[A'Moo]

[drum]

[oxi]