Job Discussion Forums

[ghost]

Folks - after a week spent in Barcelona, Catalunya, one could quickly see that teaching in Spain would be difficult due to a surplus of teachers (Brits, Irish, and Aussies, Americans and Canadians). Most of these people are prepared to work for slave wages (around 800 euros a month if lucky). With rents for foreigners costing around 500-800 per month....not a viable option to teach in Spain.

A two month ticket for Bangkok, Thailand, was purchased...and the big journey commenced on February 17 to South East Asia.

First port of call was Bangkok, a massive, polluted city, quickly ruled out. Teachers there get around $500 month - enough to get by, but difficult to save. The language school which this poster visited in Bangkok was directed by a Moroccan national who claimed "native speaker'' status!

After a quick trip to "sin city" Pattaya on the way to Cambodia, it was across the border to Cambodia....one of the poorest countries in the world with per capita income at around $250 per year (that's right per year!).

Most of the jobs in Cambodia are located in Phnom Penh (the Capital), where this scribe is now based. Phnom Penh is a city of around 2 million, but resembles a big village, especially in comparison with Bangkok.

There are a surprising number of foreign backpackers in Phnom Penh, attracted, no doubt, by the cheap living costs (guest houses for around $3/day) and the availability of cheap noxious substances, sold openly around the guest house mecca by the lake. You can eat easily for about $1 to $2.

As for teaching in Phnom Penh: Most language schools like "Home of English," the "Regent school," and "ELTS" pay foreigners between $7 to $12 an hour, depending on qualifications and the length of time teachers stay in the Kingdom.

Classes are more pleasant here, because they do not have those ridiculous (and boring) three hour blocks, so common in Turkey. Here most classes last just one hour and meet several times a week. Most schools are shut on weekends, allowing teachers to escape to Sihanoukville, the premier Cambodian beach resort, some 3.5 hours from Phnom Penh.

Having sat in on a class here, one can immediately notice that the students are much more docile and pleasant to work with than Turks. It would be unheard of here for students to stage massive walkouts from class or complain about teachers - common practices in many Turkish locales. These findings are corroborated by the native speaker teachers here who find Cambodian students to be attentive and charming, if somewhat shy and reticent at times.

On the downside of living in Phnom Penh - the traffic is horrendous - with most in the form of motor bikes, zooming right, left and centre, all over the place. One gets the feeling that one is risking life and limb every time one travels here.

Another sore point is the language barrier. If you folks though Turkish was a tricky language - try to get your tongue around the Khmer (Cambodian) language. An extremely difficult, tonal, language, with a bizarre writing system, somewhat reminiscent of sanscrit. Turkish is a piece of cake to master in comparison with Khmer or Thai.

The overall ambiance here is a rather lazy one. Most Cambodians simply relax by going to a karaoke bar and singing stupid songs, and getting happily drunk on the local brews. You do not feel a lot of energy coming from these people. The Thais are more forward looking and energetic.

The plans for the next few weeks are to visit Vietnam and Laos, and with the information from the 4 countries (Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos), decisions will be taken on whether to elect domicile here or not, with the decision probably going to the nay.

Most of these South East Asian peoples (Thais, Cambodians etc...) are smiley, smiley people, but with the communication problems and fundamental cultural differences, chances are very remote that one will stay here.

Most of the teachers who stay in Phnom Penh are married to Cambodians. The vast majority of the foreign teachers in Phnom Penh are males from U.S.A., Canada, Australia and Britain. Teacher attire is very smart and business like here. One could not get away with some of the casual garb seen in Turkey.

How can one compare Turkey and Cambodia? Cambodia is a safe country (presently) with smiley, smiley people. But at the end of the day, unless you have a Cambodian partner, it would be very boring to live here. The traffic is horrendous. The rainy monsoon season lasts for about 5 months, starting in June, making daily trips unpleasant. The music sounds boring to Western ears, and conversations with Cambodians (who speak English) are about the same in quality (or the lack thereof) as with Turks.

Latin America would be a better option, at least in this posters' case.

[dmb]

Turkey sounds favourable to the countries mentioned. When are you due back in Turkey?

[yaramaz]

Why would one compare Turkey with Cambodia? They are chalk and cheese, apples and orages... I found the comparisons intriguing but irrelevant--- people are in Turkey because they want to be in this neck of the woods. We arent here for the dosh. If we were keen to move to SE Asia, we'd check out their forums...

One thing before I give up the ghost Are 3 hour blocks normal here? I have yet to encounter them except for a month last term when a turkish teacher was on acourse every friday and I covered her half of the hazirlik classes, giving me 4 hours with them in the morning. Not a huge challenge-- we just did a variety of activities.

O, and hey, nice to hear you found a people lazier than the infinitely lazy turks...

[Byzantine]

[yaramaz]

Three hour blocks can be daunting and demanding, I guess, until you have lived through 4 and 5 hour blocks with a room full of 14 year olds on a friday.... My adult evening class was 2 hours after a long day at work, three nights a week, but some nights we went over-time. Understandably, the students can be quite tired and their brains shut down. The best way to deal with that would be a variety of activities, some active, some passive. Give them a chance to sit quietly and absorb, then speak, then... blah blah blah.

Byz, were you able to save money in Istanbul? A friend of mine who works there says he can, and I know I've visited Istanbul many times on a budget... but my Turkish friends here all insist that it is impossible to live on the US$1200 they pay (I think it's $1200 for experienced teachers, $1050 for less experience). I'm not sure what they are buying, but after paying appox $250 for shared housing, I can easily live on $250 a week!

Any opinions from others in Istanbul? No dependents, don't smoke, don't drink much, don't feel a compulsion to buy DVDs every nght to stave off boredom (as many teachers here do).... I live pretty simply. My main vices are books, newspapers, music, a nice coffee in a cafe, and internet.

[Mike_2003]

$1300 per month would be plenty to pay your rent and bills and save a couple of hundred a month.

[Byzantine]

One can most certainly save money in Istanbul. I didn't save much, but I could have quite easily. I can't remember exactly what I was making - let's say around 1200. I lived like a king. It's good to be the king. Sorry, little Mel Brooks there.

If simplicity is part of your lifestyle (a yes for Yaramaz) then saving money is possible in Istanbul. You won't end up with a warchest, but you can plan on doing ok. I wish I had more specifics in terms of an estimated range

[scot47]

GHOST

It is encouraging that your Odyssey from Turkey through Catalonia, Cambodia and Vietnam has led you to see that the world of EFL is not for you.

Many are called but few are chosen. My guess is that the vast majoritywho work in TEFL do so for a year or two and then head back home (wherever that is ) and do something more sensible.

A lifetime in EFL is only for the foolhardy minority - of which I am one !

[Mike_2003]

[ghost]

To get back to Scott's point about ESL, most of those who stay in the field do so because they do not have marketable skills in their own countries. That is the sad reality.

In Phnom Penh, for example, the vast majority of teachers would not even get jobs as janitors in their home countries. Many of the "native language teachers" in Phnom Penh are nationals from non English speaking countries (Czech Republic, Romania etc....) but they get away with it, because Khmers automatically assume that all white people are native speakers. A large number of these teachers have falsified documents. One Romanian teacher of English in an expat bar claimed "I being to teach English in Cambodia for 5 years." The guy was proud, but could not even speak proper English. The Khmers do not know any better.

Most of these teachers would be pegged as criminals in their home countries because they sleep with under aged girls (age 14-15) in the brothels which are ubiquitous in Cambodia, Thailand and Vietnam. But here they can get away with it. Many also come for the availability of the drugs which cost a fraction of what one would pay in the First World countries.

It is all rather a sad scene in South East Asia, of individuals spaced out on drugs and girls going to class in a cloud and getting away with it.........

Latin America is better, because there is some accountability for performance. At least that was the experience one had in Guatemala, Honduras, Ecuador, and Brazil. They will not put up with too much nonsense. In Guatemala one ESL teacher from England was fired because he wore earrings to class - not a problem one would think, but they are more conservative there.

At the end of the day, the whole ESL scene is a big, unregimented farce, mostly staffed by people who do not have the skills to land a real job.

There are some professional outfits and teachers but they are probably only 10% of the general ESL scene. The International schools usually demand and get better teachers. They are usually trained professionals.

[yaramaz]

Ghost, I am glad that you are realising that the ES/FL scene is not for you, but kindly refrain from tarring all ESL/EFL teachers with the same condescending brush. I've never met such a diverse group of people in my life! Here in Turkey, as you know, you need to have at least a BA and TEFL to be legally employed-- a BA takes some time and dedication to complete, making us not unqualified know-nothings who aren't employable at home. I have worked with retired business people, former newspaper editors, computer programmers, art teachers, and others. They just like teaching and travelling. I am fully employable in several areas too... but I choose to be here because I love travel, discovery, ongoing learning... and I think the same can be said for many others who are working abroad.

I have friends with the same degree I have working for big companies in Canada and for the government. If they wanted to, they could teach EFL as I do. And the same could be said for the reverse.

I am not here to goof off. I am not here to get laid (as you implied a few months ago with your comment about ugly chicks being bowled over by the suave Turkmen's seductive mating calls.... 'hey sexy ladyyyyyyy where you from ya? I love youuuuu'). I'm not here for drugs or pedophilia or other stupid thngs that people indulge in in every country and education/income bracket.

I'm just here, teaching. Tamami?

[Otterman Ollie]

Hi
Just wanted to say to Yaramaz that I don't see why you feel like bailing out of this place when you defend yourself and what we all do here so well .Watching ghosts posts in the past its clear that he is one sad sorry piece of work and hopefully when we are still plugging it out here he will be long gone . Mind you Cambodia sounds like fun but then so does Cappadocia . Keep your chin up kid .

[yaramaz]

Thanks Ollie. I'm actually no longer in a bailin' mood. I just had a really appalling winter that wore me out mentally and emotionally. Living in a grey, austere, conservative city where I was one of only a handful of foreigners didn't help either. The past few weeks have been getting better and more clear... I'm not going to leave Turkey anytime soon, me thinks. I may still relocate to other parts around the country but even that is up in the air-- my department has been so amazing to me this month that professionally I am loathe to leave so soon...

I'll keep you all up to date on the trials and tribulations of the yaramaz ogretmen as they occur... Y'all have been brilliantly supportive over the past few weeks.

[ghost]

Yaramaz - one was not painting all ESL teachers in a negative light, but you know as well as others that a substantial number of those in this field (ESL) are less than professional in their work and general outlook.

It is perhaps one of the few jobs where one can earn a decent salary for being unskilled. Look at it this way - In Cambodia, Thailand, and Vietnam, many of the teachers are people who have left their countries of origin because they were in some kind of trouble there. Quite a few have criminal records.

They come to a place like Phnom Penh, with zero training in the field, get some falsified documents (easily obtained in these countries) and they are away with a decent job in a language school, college or University.

In Turkey, granted, they are more serious in making a half hearted attempt at weeding out charlatans, but still saw quite a few. At one school in Eskisehir, a newly arrived "teacher" from Dubai was amazed that one did not have a criminal record and had never been "inside." And this guy happened to be promoted to Director of studies of an infamous language school in that horrible city of Eskisehir. This guy was drunk 90% of the time and would touch up the female students but got away with it because he was sleeping with the co-manager - a nymphomaniac crazy Turkish woman who tried to get her hands on any male.....enough of that nonsense. This Director of studies had never even finished high school. He had never graced the halls of a University either. His speech in general consisted of a load of double negatives and the "f" word. His idea of fun would be to walk down the street insulting the local populace.

Of course the truth hurts and touches a nerve, but if you are honest with yourself, Yaramaz, you will recognize that this field of ESL is mostly a joke.

The field of ESL is unregulated and open to a lot of problems, because basically if you are a native speaker you have a job.

In South East Asia, most teachers' minds are far away from the classroom when they teach. If you do not believe this, you should come down here and see for yourself.

[yaramaz]

It isn't so much about truth hurting and raw nerves being touched as much as bewilderment as to why we are having this discussion in the first place.

I would write more... but I must go teach.