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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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 Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess what this all really boils down to is that not enough university professors are shilling for Cambridge. I wonder if they might be interested in importing some sugar... |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
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| Probably because of my previous careers back home. The on-line TEFL Cert. was just to satisfy the VN work visa requirements. But keep talking out of your lower sphincter. I'm sure you, this thread and board is gaining serious cred. I'm old and accomplished. I don't care. Getting a DELTA is a step backwards for me because I have a BA. An MA would be the appropriate next step for me as anyone with a BA or BSc would know |
I realize this is a useless waste of effort as a response to the poster above, but just in case any genuine teachers with actual interest in professional development are still reading this thread:
A DELTA is an in-service certification specific to TELF/TESL. It is taken after the candidate already has experience in teaching. In some universities, some MA credits are awarded for MA students who are DELTA holders. Most successful DELTA candidates have a CELTA already - it's (roughly speaking) a more basic version of the DELTA.
DELTA is firmly above a generic BA in the field of TEFL/TESL.
Highly unlikely a poster with a non-related BA + years of experience teaching in Asia would be successful on a reputable MA program without at least a CELTA. Online MAs from low-tier universities are surely an option - but still won't qualify one for better jobs with better employers.
Deliberately NOT taken from Cambridge's website for added credibility (yikes, never thought to be in a situation where wiki would seem more credible than ......, but at least you can be sure wiki isn't benefitting financially from this!). |
It might be worth pointing out that some of the criticisms on this board of Celta/Delta are out of date - certainly the part about the A meaning adults. From the same Wiki source:
"In 2008 Delta was revised to its current format, making it suitable for all teaching age groups and divided into three free-standing modules, which can be combined to constitute the Diploma qualification.[5]
The earlier formats of the qualification were equivalent in level to the current Delta qualification but were more narrowly focused on teaching general English (as a foreign language) to adult learners; whereas the current qualification is more broadly focused on teaching a wider range of learners with a variety of needs.)"
Had certain other posters actually done their homework before pontificating on matters they know very little about, they might have avoided being guilty of the offences they accuse others of, i.e. being anachronistic. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| esl_prof wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| In regards to churning out publications, sure, perhaps the MA is the way to go. |
Actually, I don't know anyone with an MA who has published anything beyond the occasional textbook, which is a very different (and much more practical-oriented) enterprise than the scholarly peer-reviewed materials one is taught to research and write in graduate school. Most folks on the scholarly publication track have completed or are well enroute to obtaining a PhD in TESOL or applied linguistics. |
I know one guy who publishes all the time, but, he has is a certified high school teacher with two Masters degrees and is currently working on a PhD. But, yeah, he would definitely be more the exception than the rule.
| esl_prof wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| If someone's MA focused on writing a thesis on, say, reduced relative clauses, they might become one of the world's leading experts on that subject matter, but, I don't know that they are necessarily better equipped for teaching EFL to university students than a DELTA-holder. I suspect, often, that it is quite the opposite. |
Agreed. See my post above. That being said, I do think having an MA for teaching ESL at the college/university level is important as it establishes your credentials as a content-expert and puts you on par with your colleagues in other disciplines who, of course, have the same degree. (And, on a practical level, it allows administration to offer you the same starting pay as other instructors who also have an MA.) However, I do believe that many, if not most, of the practical elements included in a DELTA would be very useful preparation for teaching college-level ESL. Thus, as I suggested above, you would definitely want to either prepare yourself by pursuing a DELTA/MA sequence or, alternatively, be proactive about seeking out an MA programs that places a high priority on pedagogy and includes a supervised practicum. |
Good point about having comparable degrees with your colleagues. However, as I'm sure we are all aware, not all postgraduate degrees or degrees are equal. For instance, MAs or PhDs from Kuwaiti or Thai universities are invariably not even close to the standard of those from an internationally accredited Western university. However, I don't think I'd be mentioning that to Dr. Mohammad or Dr. Prasert during a job interview  . Anyway, I'm working at a 'College of Applied Science' in the Gulf at the moment and, as far as academic standards go, it's much closer to being a vocational college/TAFE college than a university IMHO, despite the fact that we hand out degrees.
In regards to doing a DELTA then an MA, that's a certainly a lot of work but I think that's the way the industry is going and if you are in it for a career then you got to do what you got to do. In a lot of/most places in the Gulf they won't even look at you now without an MA. In ten years, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the best-paying places will all be insisting on PhDs, experience and publications. I guess it's just supply and demand and Western TEFL teachers with a degree, a few years' experience and a CELTA have already become a dime a dozen and it's only a matter of time before the same happens to those with MAs  . |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| In a lot of/most places in the Gulf they won't even look at you now without an MA. In ten years, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the best-paying places will all be insisting on PhDs, experience and publications. I guess it's just supply and demand and Western TEFL teachers with a degree, a few years' experience and a CELTA have already become a dime a dozen and it's only a matter of time before the same happens to those with MAs. |
I doubt that in 10+ years, PhDs will be in high demand. The GCC tends to follow the trends of university-level IEPs in the US, UK, etc., which aren't likely to require their EFL teachers to possess doctoral degrees. Besides, expect the Gulf to eventually have more qualified nationals (with TEFL-related degrees from the west) for those foundation year teaching positions due to Saudization, Emiratisation, Kuwaitization, Omanisation...
Back to the topic of Vietnam... |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| In a lot of/most places in the Gulf they won't even look at you now without an MA. In ten years, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the best-paying places will all be insisting on PhDs, experience and publications. I guess it's just supply and demand and Western TEFL teachers with a degree, a few years' experience and a CELTA have already become a dime a dozen and it's only a matter of time before the same happens to those with MAs. |
I doubt that in 10+ years, PhDs will be in high demand. The GCC tends to follow the trends of university-level IEPs in the US, UK, etc., which aren't likely to require their EFL teachers to possess doctoral degrees. Besides, expect the Gulf to eventually have more qualified nationals (with TEFL-related degrees from the west) for those foundation year teaching positions due to Saudization, Emiratisation, Kuwaitization, Omanisation... |
Perhaps that will be the case and, to be honest, I was looking at it more in terms of the way things have been trending. There is a much greater emphasis placed on post graduate qualifications now than in the past and I'm not convinced that's peaked. The first boss I had in TEFL had a very successful, well-paid, varied career (he is now retired) with just a BA and a CELTA. Anyway, I doubt he would have been able to accomplish nearly as much with those qualifications now as what he was able to do 'back in the day'.
However, these days, if you want to make this into a serious career, you really need to consider investing in your qualifications and, like I said, I think it's going to come down to supply and demand. TEFLers with MAs are pretty common-place now and there are more graduating every year. Personally, I think there is a good chance that the better-paying employers are going to eventually raise the 'ante' and look for even higher academic qualifications, simply because they can. That's just my hunch and I guess we will have to wait and see how things unfold.
In regards to the various '-ization' programs happening in the Gulf, I'm not convinced they will prove as significant in tertiary education as some people hope or believe they will. That's simply because I'm not convinced that there are enough local students with the ability, drive and desire to get the desired qualifications. For example, Omanization has been around for years and out of the thirty-four teachers in our English Department, we have two Omanis. That's despite the fact that the Oman Government bends over backwards to financially support locals in their studies and pretty much guarantees them a well-paying, secure job after finishing. If a typical Vietnamese student had the same opportunities to get ahead as the Gulf Arabs, then I can guarantee you that most of them would work their tails off. However, as a generalization, their work ethic, compared to the Gulf students, are poles apart. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| Personally, I think there is a good chance that the better-paying employers are going to eventually raise the 'ante' and look for even higher academic qualifications, simply because they can. |
The education ministries will very likely keep the academic qualification requirement for teachers at the MA level. However, applicants will be expected to have specific skills/experience in curriculum development, eLearning/mobile technology, test writing, etc.
| and wrote: |
| In regards to the various '-ization' programs happening in the Gulf, I'm not convinced they will prove as significant in tertiary education as some people hope or believe they will. That's simply because I'm not convinced that there are enough local students with the ability, drive and desire. |
You obviously haven't been to TESOL Arabia---that's where you'll meet plenty of highly-qualified GCC nationals. The region's governments continue to send their citizens to the West for graduate and doctoral studies in the field.
Sorry to take this thread off topic. Peace out. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| Personally, I think there is a good chance that the better-paying employers are going to eventually raise the 'ante' and look for even higher academic qualifications, simply because they can. |
The education ministries will very likely keep the academic qualification requirement for teachers at the MA level. However, applicants will be expected to have specific skills/experience in curriculum development, eLearning/mobile technology, test writing, etc. |
Like I said, "Perhaps that will be the case" and the views I expressed earlier are "just my hunch and I guess we will have to wait and see how things unfold." Nobody here has a crystal ball and I've given my reasons as to how and why I think the industry may change and, if your predictions are different to mine, then fine. Personally, I hope you are right.
| nomad soul wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| In regards to the various '-ization' programs happening in the Gulf, I'm not convinced they will prove as significant in tertiary education as some people hope or believe they will. That's simply because I'm not convinced that there are enough local students with the ability, drive and desire. |
You obviously haven't been to TESOL Arabia---that's where you'll meet plenty of highly-qualified GCC nationals. The region's governments continue to send their citizens to the West for graduate and doctoral studies in the field. |
Weren't you the one that said earlier that we should get "Back to the topic of Vietnam..."?  I think the moderators have thus far opted for a light touch with this discussion because it deals with professional development and career advancement and, in short, very few spend their whole TEFL careers just in Vietnam. In other words, I think some 'straying' (within reason) is fine, but I think the topic of Gulf "-ization" programs may be going a bit too far. I'll try to be quick and hopefully not exhaust the patience of the moderators.
Firstly, you're right, I've never been to a TESOL Arabia Conference, but I never doubted, nor said, that there are not "plenty of highly-qualified GCC nationals" out there. The region has about 26,000,000 nationals living in it after all and, as already mentioned, I'm currently working side-by-side with two Omani teachers right now. What I do doubt is that the "highly-qualified GCC nationals" will become 'plentiful' enough, in the foreseeable future, to come close to meeting EFL demand.
In Oman, they have had almost thirty years of 'Omanization' and, as far as the actual teaching of EFL in tertiary institutions goes, it has barely made an impression. Indeed, if they could have replaced every foreigner working in every English department with Omanis, then, I don't doubt for a second, that they pretty much would have. The fact that they haven't (or anything remotely close to it), and are actively recruiting more foreign teachers for across Oman, tells me something. Don't get me wrong, in certain industries across the Gulf, I'm sure the "-ization" programs are probably very significant, but, [whilst I only have first-hand experience in Oman] EFL does not appear to be one of them yet and, personally, I don't see that changing anytime soon. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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I'm dismayed to see that shilling for Cambridge isn't higher on either of your priorities : (
Tsk tsk! |
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esl_prof
Joined: 30 Nov 2013
Posts: 2006
Location: peyi kote solèy frèt
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| Anyway, I'm working at a 'College of Applied Science' in the Gulf at the moment and, as far as academic standards go, it's much closer to being a vocational college/TAFE college than a university IMHO, despite the fact that we hand out degrees. |
Pretty much my experience teaching at a number of colleges/universities in the Caribbean. More along the lines of advanced high school compared to their much more academically rigorous counterparts in North America.
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| In regards to doing a DELTA then an MA, that's a certainly a lot of work but I think that's the way the industry is going and if you are in it for a career then you got to do what you got to do. |
Frankly, unless you're interested in doing a theory-intensive MA (which would be nicely complimented with the more practical-oriented DELTA), I'd just shop around for an MA program that places a high priority on pedagogy and, more importantly, applying it to your own classroom. I have colleagues at my current school who did programs like that at SIT and Marlboro, both in Vermont, but would imagine that there are numerous other programs out there with a similar teaching-intensive focus. When it comes to actually applying for jobs, I don't think having the DELTA on your resume in addition to the MA is actually going to make you more competitive and, in some markets, I suspect prospective academic employers often won't even know what a DELTA is. The value of the DELTA, if you choose to do it, will be reflected in your actual performance as a classroom teacher. |
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esl_prof
Joined: 30 Nov 2013
Posts: 2006
Location: peyi kote solèy frèt
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
It might be worth pointing out that some of the criticisms on this board of Celta/Delta are out of date - certainly the part about the A meaning adults. From the same Wiki source:
"In 2008 Delta was revised to its current format, making it suitable for all teaching age groups and divided into three free-standing modules, which can be combined to constitute the Diploma qualification.[5]
The earlier formats of the qualification were equivalent in level to the current Delta qualification but were more narrowly focused on teaching general English (as a foreign language) to adult learners; whereas the current qualification is more broadly focused on teaching a wider range of learners with a variety of needs.)" |
Good to know, Comrade, but is that also true of CELTA. The source you've provided suggests that this might only be the case for DELTA. Thanks for the clarification!!! |
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esl_prof
Joined: 30 Nov 2013
Posts: 2006
Location: peyi kote solèy frèt
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
I'm dismayed to see that shilling for Cambridge isn't higher on either of your priorities : (
Tsk tsk! |
Perhaps if you'd teach us all the secret handshake . . . and cut us in on part of your commission . . . |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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As far as my controllers in Cambridge tell me, the Celta really is mainly for adults, apart from a single input session here and there. For practical training, there is still the extension course - usually an additional two weeks.
I doubt any feathered friends would be up for the kind of initial outlay all that involves... |
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esl_prof
Joined: 30 Nov 2013
Posts: 2006
Location: peyi kote solèy frèt
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| As far as my controllers in Cambridge tell me, the Celta really is mainly for adults, apart from a single input session here and there. |
Thanks for the clarification. I wouldn't want to be disseminating inaccurate information now, would I? Even if I haven't been paid my commission . . . |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| esl_prof wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| In regards to doing a DELTA then an MA, that's a certainly a lot of work but I think that's the way the industry is going and if you are in it for a career then you got to do what you got to do. |
Frankly, unless you're interested in doing a theory-intensive MA (which would be nicely complimented with the more practical-oriented DELTA), I'd just shop around for an MA program that places a high priority on pedagogy and, more importantly, applying it to your own classroom. I have colleagues at my current school who did programs like that at SIT and Marlboro, both in Vermont, but would imagine that there are numerous other programs out there with a similar teaching-intensive focus. When it comes to actually applying for jobs, I don't think having the DELTA on your resume in addition to the MA is actually going to make you more competitive and, in some markets, I suspect prospective academic employers often won't even know what a DELTA is. The value of the DELTA, if you choose to do it, will be reflected in your actual performance as a classroom teacher. |
I agree with that and you and I seem to be on the same page in that the real value of your qualifications should stem from how it has made you into a better teacher. However, when it comes to getting jobs, I'm not convinced that's necessarily what is happening and many employers seem to be more preoccupied with candidates having the 'right' academic qualifications without really examining in any detail how those qualifications can realistically prove useful in the classroom. |
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esl_prof
Joined: 30 Nov 2013
Posts: 2006
Location: peyi kote solèy frèt
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| I agree with that and you and I seem to be on the same page in that the real value of your qualifications should stem from how it has made you into a better teacher. However, when it comes to getting jobs, I'm not convinced that's necessarily what is happening and many employers seem to be more preoccupied with candidates having the 'right' academic qualifications without really examining in any detail how those qualifications can realistically prove useful in the classroom. |
Precisely. Thus the burden is upon us as instructors to do our homework and be creative about finding the best way to improve our teaching skills while, at the same time, meeting the necessary requisites for the types of jobs we hope to land. |
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