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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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 Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| This simply wouldn't have been tolerated in the Motherland. Little hesitation in sending in the heavy squad to quell any sign of trouble. Curious factoid. The Federation has more uniformed urban police than soldiers in the army. Now why do you think that may be...? Perhaps the UK needs to follow suit? |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| This simply wouldn't have been tolerated in the Motherland. Little hesitation in sending in the heavy squad to quell any sign of trouble. Curious factoid. The Federation has more uniformed urban police than soldiers in the army. Now why do you think that may be...? Perhaps the UK needs to follow suit? |
Could it be that the powers-that-be in the Motherland are more afraid of a citizen uprising than an invasion by foreign powers?  |
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Dedicated
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 972
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Tottenham is said to have one of the worst employment rates in the country, adding to what has been described as " a conflagration of aggression from a socially and economically excluded underclass.
Today, it took me just 10 minutes on the Internet to see that the National Apprenticeships Scheme currently has 2,228 vacancies in London alone. The first one I clicked on was a paid three-year traineeship in a garage in Edmonton -just two miles from Tottenham - for a body and paint apprentice. There are 500,000 jobs, admittedly mostly low-paying ones, on the national Job Centre register.
So much for social and economic exclusion. |
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eurobound
Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ancient_dweller wrote: |
1) it is only by civilised people setting a civilised example that people will learn how to live.
2) the looters will notice that the police didn't run in and hit people. They looked on as the looters trashed shops and stole tvs.
3) It's a shame for the looters. it makes the looters look bad - not the police.
4) the point it is - let primitive people behave primitively, why not have a good joke about it too - then put them in prison afterwards.
5) it is quite amusing to read some newspapers who have found for example 1 person who they consider 'middle-class' and then said 'middle-class' in riots!  (daily mail hint hint)
6) i'm with the reaction of the police on this one. Why risk your lives to stop idiots stealing 3D tv's - you know they were too stupid to steal the glasses. (few months of GIRO i think for the glasses - especially on the SONY sets) |
1) I don't think it is only that. You make quite a blanket statement there and I don't think it's true in many, many cases. Most of us here in the capital have been living in a civilised manner for quite a lengthy period of time. Our example clearly hasn't rubbed off on others, and has demonstrably not shown them how to live.
2) You say this like it is a good thing. The insinuation seems to be that this ludicrous approach (if it was employed) would eventually shame the lotters into buckling up and flying right in life. Which is a nice thought, but a naive one all the same. Your faith in humanity is admirable, though I fear misguided. This tactic (if used) of the Police not 'rushing in and hitting people', if anything, would be a clear red rag to the looters to go ahead and loot some more. The looters knew that in many cases nothing would be done to them, and so they joined in or, if already involved, carried on. If I've misunderstood your point here, I apologise in advance.
3) They're looters. They're attempting to break the law. They already look bad, regardless of Police response. Who are you, their PR man?
4) Because it is categorically NOT a joke. Not to the small businessmen running the off licenses that are trashed and burnt, leaving them penniless and surviving on handouts until (and indeed if) their insurers pay up. If you were one of them, surely you'd rather the Police intervene beforehand, rather than letting them behave this way and rounding them up afterwards.
5) I'm surprised it's taken this long for someone to mention that newspaper. If half the planet were destroyed overnight by an asteroid, people would accuse The Daily Mail of hysteria when reporting it the next day. People are just as brainwashed reading The Guardian as they are the Mail, just in a different way that's all. Let's not kid ourselves that newspapers in this country fall into neat good guy/bad guy categories.
6) It is the job of the Police to intervene when a crime is being committed. That is their job. That is what we pay them to do. You don't have to risk physical injury to yourself in order to stop crime, the Police are there to do that so you don't have to. Supposedly.
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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People who say that poverty is the ONLY (or the main) cause of all this are, I'd say, just as off-base as those who say that poverty has NOTHING (or almost nothing) to do with it.
The rioters/looters undoubtedly have a large number of various "motivations," some of which may make their behavior more "understandable" and others which may make it more reprehensible.
Looters/rioters are individuals, too.
Regards,
John |
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eurobound
Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
| The rioters/looters undoubtedly have a large number of various "motivations," |
TVs, DVD players, mobile phone equipment, video games, designer clothes, booze, fags, the contents of off licence cash machines... Various indeed |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Looters/rioters are individuals, too. |
No, they're not. These people worked according to Herd Instinct, which is the opposite, in my book, to individualism. |
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eurobound
Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Looters/rioters are individuals, too. |
No, they're not. These people worked according to Herd Instinct, which is the opposite, in my book, to individualism. |
Come now Phil, these people are individual snowflakes, each one beautiful in their own way  |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Phil_K,
You're talking about behavior; I'm talking about the reasons for behavior. DO you honestly believe that every single rioter was out there for exactly the same reason?
"A gregarious person can't imagine that there can be individual tastes and personal reasons for holding certain views. For him any tastes and points of view are divided into the "right" (which he holds and believes that they are shared by the majority of the herd � all "normal people") and "wrong" ones."
If so, your opinion rather resembles the quote above.
Regards,
John |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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You're talking about behavior; I'm talking about the reasons for behavior. DO you honestly believe that every single rioter was out there for exactly the same reason?
Yes, a lack of moral standards and intelligence. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Phil_K,
Aha - got you there. If that were true, there would have been a lot more ESL teachers arrested.
Regards,
John |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:12 am Post subject: |
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No comment (needed, I think)
"The Police Federation said that if the riots had happened in a year's time - with "10 or 12,000 fewer officers" - police would not have been able to mobilise resources in the way they have done this week.
But during Thursday's debate, the prime minister insisted the cuts were "totally achievable" without any reduction in the visible policing presence and said that a "surge" of officers - as seen in recent days - would still be possible in future."
Now I can definitely go along with this:
"More than 100,000 people have signed an online petition calling for anyone convicted of taking part in the riots to lose any benefits they receive."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14501236
Regards,
John |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Isla Guapa wrote: |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| This simply wouldn't have been tolerated in the Motherland. Little hesitation in sending in the heavy squad to quell any sign of trouble. Curious factoid. The Federation has more uniformed urban police than soldiers in the army. Now why do you think that may be...? Perhaps the UK needs to follow suit? |
Could it be that the powers-that-be in the Motherland are more afraid of a citizen uprising than an invasion by foreign powers? |
Yip. As it ever was, and will be, it seems. With good reason too, as 1917 shows...
In times past the British exported their looters, in resplendent red uniforms, and let them loose on the world, planted lots of union flags and thus created one of history's most successful empires. Take a look at the National or British Museum to see the scale and scope of the looting that went on before. State-sanctioned back in those days. These days, with no empire to ship these violent types out to, indeed with the ex-empire supplying even more disaffected individuals to the capital, the violence breaks out during football matches, or poll-tax protests etc. I predict, by means of dialectics, that the British government will need to adopt similar Russian attitudes to crowd control, or perish under lawlessness. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Sasha,
Well, the moral (ironic word here) seems to be this: if you're going to be a looter, be a really BIG looter. That way, instead of going to the slammer, you get knighted.
Regards,
John |
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