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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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 Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| What i was talking bout was a young man's conviction and his attitude towards "making things work"...and truth be told if I had a school instead of a motorcycle parts supply..I would want someone who had expressed the attitude he had to work for me... |
indeed you get to the core of the EF problem - EF isn't really a school its a business.
Maybe you'd want a guy like gregor to pull all the stops in wringing out that extra cash for your business - but teaching your kids??? Teaching has a different set of responsibilities than the lets climb up the company ladder by playing the big boss's game type ethics, that are often so clearly expounded in G's posts  |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| I would agree with your assessment of EF being a biz...but I find little fault with that..but if I had invested money in my children's development of language skills and I chose a training agency as opposed to a public school..where the local education authority may or may not offer this advantage..I would say that my observed results would be the decision factor..and if the expansion of EF is an indication..then a least a few folks both client and employee that are somewhat satisfied..it is doubtful that parents read yearly reports...they just want the kids to spell "pencil"... |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:34 am Post subject: |
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hey CJ didn't think you'd be the type to push your kids into one of those EF type holes - we both know parents and kids sharing oily fingers or riding about with the wind blowing through their hair brings about are far greater feeling of satisfation - and learning - than another little Zhang being matched off to the educational meat factory - plenty of time for him to learn English, learning life is far more important.
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| ..then a least a few folks both client and employee that are somewhat satisfied |
I hardly think customer satisfaction is the major catalyst towards this trend - making a buck of the back of a demand that has a predujice against home grown product seems to be more important. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| hey CJ didn't think you'd be the type to push your kids into one of those EF type holes |
Your right I would never do that...
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| than another little Zhang being matched off to the educational meat factory |
That is "Ahem', LITTLE cj and the only thing he would be marched off to would be the Hondu Aircraft factory in Nanchang where the assembly line for the Chang Jiang motorcycle resides..for his primer in internal combustion... |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:09 am Post subject: |
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When I was a kid in Birmingham our neighbour was MD for Triumph Meriden - I used to get a trip over there once in a while - and got to help the polishers getting bonnes, daytonas and tridents ready for shipping - little CJ Zhang sounds a lucky kid - I know I was  |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:26 am Post subject: |
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vikdk is, as usual, twisting my words, and I keep forgetting to be anal-retentively precise in my choice of words. I keep thinking that I'm talking to reasonable, intelligent people who will likely understand the context, because for the most part I am, but then there are people like vikdk, who don't want to communicate, but rather win some sort of imaginary debate.
I'm not DEBATING, vikdk, I'm explaining.
Well, OK. We'll spell every bloody detail out. That pleases you, eh? Surely you'll find something ELSE to pick at, but as usual, it won't change anything, will it? But OK. I have nothing to do today. So...
When I say "under any circumstances," we had particular circumstances under discussion. Of COURSE I would not ask a teacher to work under unreasonable circumstances. And I have yet to encounter an unreasonable circumstance that was not covered by the contract.
Your having a problem with a school being a business is well documented and very much not the point.
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..then a least a few folks both client and employee that are somewhat satisfied |
I hardly think customer satisfaction is the major catalyst towards this trend - making a buck of the back of a demand that has a prejudice against home grown product seems to be more important |
I agree that a prejudice against home-grown product is a big part of why most of us have jobs. I'm referring to schools as well as teachers.
It's VERY hard for me to find a Chinese teacher who doesn't insist on teaching me in English...and I've had problems with local English teachers teaching English in Chinese.
In other words, there's a reason for that particular prejudice.
But vikdk, you have got to be joking or living in an alternate reality if you think that schools in China - ANY schools - don't have to keep the customers happy.
And, yes, I said "customer," not "student." Pretty much EVERYTHING involving paying money is a consumer good in China. This is the most money/consumer culture I have ever seen. It blew my mind when I first came here, expecting to see a communist country. I saw nothing of the sort. Communist-style government, maybe. But the people??
And the Chinese consumer is INCREDIBLY results-oriented. Often to the point of being unreasonable. Yes, customer satisfaction is very important, at least in the EFs of my own experience.
Hell, man, that's one of the biggest teacher complaints about EF (and I'll add that people making those complaints mystify me). Teachers cry at me all the time about this:
"I'm a TEACHER, not an ENTERTAINER!" (BTW, wrong. If you can't keep a class's interest, you won't teach them anything.)
"Why do the parents/students" take your pick, I've heard both, ad infinitum, "have so much say over what I'm teaching?" (Because they want results, and if their demands are reasonable, we will meet them.)
"Why are parents always at the window?" Or else, "Why do you let parents sit in on the class?" (Because they are paying a lot of money for those classes and they want to know that their kids are learning something, not just fooling around. And, BTW, only parents of new students can sit in to see the teacher for a partial lesson, ONCE, and with a week's notice so I can warn the teacher.)
No doubt I have admitted to enough practices here to deter most teachers on THIS board from working for me.
But yeah, you can say that this is a service-oriented business, and customers are satisfied. There is plenty of competition in ANY city in China, even for foreign-grown enterprises. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:28 am Post subject: |
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The number of students in a class is NOT part of that contract.
EF standard is up to 16 students in a classroom, isn't it? Aren't the teachers told during their interviews about their jobs? Aren't they given those excpectations? Hasn't that really been a part of the EF deal? And again, what "contract" are you talking about?
I'm talking about the teachers' employmnet contract, which they presumably read and then sign.
I have no idea how many students are allowed in the clssroom anymore. The max., if I remember correctly, is 21. Maybe 20. I don't know and I don't care. I have "taught" much larger classes. I put "taught" in quotes because I have my doubts that classes larger than, say, 20 students are teachable in the kind of atmosphere that EF hopes to create.
My point is that it's not an issue that teachers have any business in, and one that a DoS, though has his say, has any power to decide. |
So, an FT comes from a 16 hour flight for a gig to teach up to 16 Chinese in one classroom and you say "it's not an issue ..." 
Anyway, how come you can't remember those classroom numbers? Has it been that long? Or has it been that unclear?
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| As a director of studies, it is my job to tell the management what I, in my professional opinion, think is the best way for students to learn and for teachers to teach. |
So, "thinker"?
It's a rather groovy name for a "Director of Studies" 
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| As a teacher, it is their job to do what they can. |
So, is it their job to do what they "can" or what they have come to EF English First in China to do?
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| As a DoS, it's my job to prepare them for that. |
I hope you give'em some kinda "preparation" prior to their arrival. 
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Your mistake is in thinking that DoS is a manager of some sort. It IS, but what a DoS manages is the quality of education, GIVEN THE SITUATION, WHICH IS OUT OF THE DoS's CONTROL.
In other words, a DoS job is to prepare the teachers, NOT determine who or what or where the teaching is to occur. |
Hmm...you've got me there a bit, I must admit. You've also made a good point about what the DOS's job at EF English First in China is.
The EF placement tests are to "determine" "who" or "what" the EF teachers will teach. "Where" the teaching will occur is accademically as important too. So, if you are to send your teachers to a room with no board, low lights etc ....don't you feel incompetent? ...and then as per that "where" don't you feel absolutely unreasonable when your teachers are traveling more than half an hour away from your EF center without counting it against their hours on their schedules?
But I bet your teachers love ya. ...and so does the Headless Office.
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| You, Englishgibson, clearly don't like that, and for that reason you have no business being a DoS. |
Yes, I have no business being an EF "thinker"/"adviser"/"bendover" and I totally agree with ya there. ...but I can see how much you've been enjoying it. 
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| It's just a matter of understanding the job, and what is NOT the job. That's all it is. And you don't seem to understand that. |
Yes again and I couldn't agree more there...and "THAT'S ALL IT IS".
It's not that I don't seem to understand that, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT. If you were in EF DOSs training you might've learnt what the (now former..and there are a few "former" ones) EF AOM trained newbie EF Directors of Studies for. The AOM also provided DOS manual for newbie DOSs and a new manual came out just about every year. I hope you know what I am talking about. Then, part of those trainings was to improve the DOSs management skills ...well with regards to academics especially as well as how to deal/communicate with EF Center Managers. It looks like you've never been there, but sorry if I am wrong. By the way, Academic Coordinators were at EF in China before the Directors of Studies...the name of the academic leading position at EF centers has a rather different meaning now than 5 years ago.
Gregor, what I am trying to say is that YOU CAN "COORDINATE" or YOU CAN "DIRECT". Yes, EF employers accepted the "new name of the position", although they could not understand the difference ...i am glad you understand it well
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| I expect a teacher - a QUALIFIED teacher - to do what (s)he is capable of doing, under whatever circumstances. |
 Wow! I bet they get a proper training for that from you.
One "circumstance" that I remember during my DOS duties was that a teacher had to be sent to a primary school ..40 minutes away from our EF center...into a kinda "Chinese countryside. This teacher was provided a rather inconsistant transportation and had to teach under rather unreasonable "circumstances"...mixed levels/ages with high expectations from (highly paying) parents. Later, parents surely complained about the results...eventhough most of 'em did not have a clue about English...their kids failed their primary school exams as well as our marketing manager failed to explain our teaching plans. Then, one day, when the transportation did not show up for that FT and his Chinese assistant...they got stuck in the "country"...a biker noticed a lovely girl (Chinese assistant) and grabbed her purse with her cell as well as schools money  ..worse than just that, since that lovely girl did not want to let her purse go, the biker dragged her over the sidewalk with the FT trying to catch up with him...absolute disaster..girl ended up in the hospital for treatment....saying it just 'cause there're loads of 'CIRCUMSTANCES", Gregor.
I am sure you believe it's none of the Director of Studies business..right??? 
EF English First organizational structure is one thing and Center Manager-Employer-Director of Studies roll is another ...Contracts between each and the EF Headless Office and employers are a rather interesting ground.
But hey it's none of our business
Gregor keep the EF English First proud and happy,
and
cheers and beers to the hard working FTs in China
Last edited by englishgibson on Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:32 am Post subject: |
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tell you one thing - when it comes to having confidence in the teachers of my kids - between EG and G - I'd go for Gregor any day the pick of a very miserable bunch
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| and I've had problems with local English teachers teaching English in Chinese. |
by the way love to hear why you think this its wrong to teach English in Chinese - after all when teaching adult students then half the job is motivating them to learn - you know all that promotion of self-study, putting the hours in back home, explaining differing learning techniques - and that's of course not even taking into account understanderble explanations of grammar etc etc. Motivational talk and educational guidance - to students who haven't obtained very high fluency levels - is surely best done in an L1 - just think back to the days when you learnt an L2 if you dont beleive me
By the way - think yourself honoured I'm asking you this G - I'd never dream of posing EG this type of question |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:01 am Post subject: English First--Director of Studies |
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| No doubt I have admitted to enough practices here to deter most teachers on THIS board from working for me. |
I hope NOT
Since
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| "I'm a TEACHER, not an ENTERTAINER!" |
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| But yeah, you can say that this is a service-oriented business, and customers are satisfied. There is plenty of competition in ANY city in China, even for foreign-grown enterprises. |
This is something that's a very true and very difficult to deal with from educational point of view.
In a couple of EF centers I remember that parents wanted us to improve their kids public schools' English exams. Our academic material was quite different from what their kids learnt at their public schools mind ya. I felt we were in a "catch 22" situation ... take their money and give'em that promise or tell'em to go elsewhere
You guys know what all employers think when it comes to that above and money. Now, is it only about "standards of schools/centers/franchises" and the business? ...having made 10 000 a month, would you bend over for another 5???
Cheers and beers |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: |
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well done EG - to be fair I'd better ask you a question as well -
EG what day is it today? |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| tell you one....I'd never dream of posing EG this type of question |
I tell you one too...you've caught my attention, since your participation on here's rather more "frequent" nowadays. I'd never dream of VIKDK in an EF classroom
Peace to ya
and
cheers and beers |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: |
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vikdk,
Forget teaching qualifications - I had an EXCELLENT Chinese teacher, the best ever in my life - in the form of a patient, gifted night security guard in my building. He didn't speak a word of English, but those lessons were some of the best I've seen.
I think that it's good practice for the students to learn in the target language, and a good teacher can engage the students' interest without using L1. I firmly believe that. It's the load of hooey they fed me at my certificate course years ago, but I still firmly believe it. My experience - as a teacher as well as a learner - plays that out. I didn't even TRY to learn an L2 until after that course, and a good Spanish teacher - who spoke no English that I know of - is still my friend.
And I'd like for you to know that I have been a language learner from the very beginning of my teaching career. I take lessons in SOME form in every country. I had no interest in learning Indonesian or Arabic (when I was in Lebanon), but I do not want to lose touch with what my students are struggling with.
As for explanations of grammar - WHY is that an issue? Why do beginning students who know nothing about this language need explanations of grammar? It's easy for them to understand difficult points once they have the basics that I teach in the first place. Once there, explanations in English are not an issue.
And even then, the students don't need to REMEMBER the grammar to speak English. Once they have the right habits in their heads, they are free to forget the rules.
The story I tell my students is about my brother, the eternal doctorate student who speaks perfect English, but if you put a gun to his head and told him to elucidate the difference between a gerund and a participle, you'd have to shoot him, because he'd have no idea what you were talking about.
If, on the other hand, a student wants to pass his high school English tests and doesn't give a tin sh*t about speaking English, he needs a Chinese tutor who knows how to pass the test. He does not need me.
As for Englishgibson, that whole effort was very little other than baiting. You could have ended your post with this:
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| The number of students in a class is NOT part of that contract. |
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| EF standard is up to 16 students in a classroom, isn't it? Aren't the teachers told during their interviews about their jobs? Aren't they given those excpectations? Hasn't that really been a part of the EF deal? And again, what "contract" are you talking about? |
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| I'm talking about the teachers' employmnet contract, which they presumably read and then sign. |
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I have no idea how many students are allowed in the clssroom anymore. The max., if I remember correctly, is 21. Maybe 20. I don't know and I don't care. I have "taught" much larger classes. I put "taught" in quotes because I have my doubts that classes larger than, say, 20 students are teachable in the kind of atmosphere that EF hopes to create.
My point is that it's not an issue that teachers have any business in, and one that a DoS, though has his say, has any power to decide. |
So, an FT comes from a 16 hour flight for a gig to teach up to 16 Chinese in one classroom and you say "it's not an issue ..."
Anyway, how come you can't remember those classroom numbers? Has it been that long? Or has it been that unclear? |
I'm 100% sure that the last time I was at an EF, their guarenteed number of students in the classroom (guarenteed to whomever was paying for the class, NOT to the teachers) was either 20 or 21. One ofthose. It was NOT as low as 16.
And in any case, only an idiot would tell the teachers that. because a local franchise may choose to raise or lower that number, AND a local franchise is free to farm teachers out to other schools, which may have a different policy (for example, I have had to teach in a high school with 50 - 60 students in one class). It is not in the teachers' contract, anyway. You are confusing EF corporate policy (which many local EFs flout) with the teachers' contract. What's the difference? The corporate policy is LIKELY to be flouted, but the contract is not. I won't allow it, and I WOULD lose my job to protect a teacher's contractual rights.
It would be equally idiotic for a DoS to hire a teacher without making sure the teacher knew this would be possible. That's just ASKING for a runner.
So of course I let the teacher know what he or she is getting into before he or she comes. Of COURSE.
If you were not hiring, and you didn't have the opportunity to do this, then you should have quit before you were fired.
And yes, I went to the EF training thing. It didn't represent reality. And I was prepared for reality when I got onto the job. I'd been teaching UNDER DoSes, in many institutions, for years at that point. YOU obviously believed everything they told you. I was already old and experienced enough to know better. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| dont strain that brain too much EG - other wise you'll start having visions Tamils and they might send you off to camp roger |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: English First--Director of Studies |
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I'm 100% sure that the last time I was at an EF, their guarenteed number of students in the classroom (guarenteed to whomever was paying for the class, NOT to the teachers) was either 20 or 21. One ofthose. It was NOT as low as 16.
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I see that you are "a bit" more sure than in your previous post, but no "baiting" there ...THE EF ENGLISH FIRST STANDARD HAS BEEN 16...it must've changed in your EF place
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| And in any case, only an idiot would tell the teachers that. because a local franchise may choose to raise or lower that number, AND a local franchise is free to farm teachers out to other schools, which may have a different policy (for example, I have had to teach in a high school with 50 - 60 students in one class). It is not in the teachers' contract, anyway. You are confusing EF corporate policy .. |
NO ..but sorry to have confused you ...again, your EF place must be rather different there ...or "maybe" the EF agreements have changed in 2005 or 2006, have they?
EF English First has had standard EF classrooms size and that's been 16, Gregor....teaching 60 students those Trail Blazers??? or maybe you've got some non EF material, have ya?
By the way, I'd love to hear your EF phone interviews with those FT applicants..."idiots" asking YOU what their job will be
Surely, EF policies vary from EF center to EF center and that's why it is a farce organization with farce management
Cheer and beers to hard working FTs in China |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:33 am Post subject: |
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The idiots I mentioned were the people who hired teachers without letting them know what they were getting into.
The rest of your last post...
Are you drunk? High? There wasn't even anything to answer. I'm disappointed. Read it. That was gibberish. You, I, and any reader on this post can see that you have nothing to say in response to my last post. So are we done?? Please give me something to argue! I'd be hurt and disappointed if you couldn't do better than that last post, because life is kind of boring for me right now. And arguing with you is something to DO. |
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