|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
rogerwallace
Joined: 24 Nov 2004
Posts: 66
Location: California
|
 Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:29 am Post subject: as a history and esl teacher... |
 |
|
I still think russia's point is well taken about history. If you don't know it and know it well, whos to say if its been changed, which is happening as we read this? How many enginers do we need, how many math majors?
The reason democracy is so non existant and government is but an oligarchy, is because the powers that be have stopped pushing history, and that includes educational history!
Consent of the governed is now manufactured. Isn't the chinese word for propaganda the same for advertizing?
Nationalism is fading fast with the advent of The New World Order. It is now become International Corporate Socialism: privatize the profit and socialise the losses. Hey china has caught on fast huh... |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
How many engineers and math majors? Hard to give you hard figures, but certainly we're not graduating enough.
Then again, some people disagree.
[url]
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2009-07-08-science-engineer-jobs_N.htm[/url]
From other things I've read, that is why we're importing Chinese and Indian techs and scientists, because we're not graduating enough. Yet this article says that a lot of experienced people can't find jobs.
http://www.conferenceboard.ca/HCP/Details/education/graduates-science-math-computer-science-engineerin.aspx
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/president-obama-expands-educate-innovate-campaign-excellence-science-technology-eng
http://www.educause.edu/thetowerandthecloud/PUB7202h
[Interesting discussion in the below link on why more university science courses are useful for even non-scientists (and just think, in Japan some kids don't have any science after middle school?!).]
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/High+stakes,+high+attrition:+the+STEM+civic+shortfall.-a0180239172
I know that Google and Microsoft as well as other high tech companies
compete for top science and mathematics graduates from abroad. Some of this is economics (though some of these people who come to work in the US are paid the same salaries as American hires), some of it is getting top brains where you can.
Now why technical people with long experience in Silicon Valley are out of work, I couldn't tell you. Maybe they priced themselves out of the market or their current skill sets don't match what employers are looking for. One trend recently is having to constantly upgrade your job skills; this includes more formal education and learning new skills. Sometimes being long experienced is not enough if your niche has disappeared or become technologically outmoded.
rogerwallace posted
| Quote: |
| The reason democracy is so non existant and government is but an oligarchy, is because the powers that be have stopped pushing history, and that includes educational history! |
Where is this coming from? You've been reading znet again, haven't you?
Hmm, everything can always be improved, but I don't see this gulf in education about history that you do. History is still studied (and fabricated sometimes), and certainly in the US there are plenty of people keeping an eye on history that is being taught. The PTAs in many areas are also very strong on policing this matter, though of course sometimes they get bogged down in 'religious crusades', both in and out of school.
rogerwallace posted
| Quote: |
| Consent of the governed is now manufactured. Isn't the chinese word for propaganda the same for advertizing? |
So free will is a thing of the past, yeah? So all these people protesting in the US are the same as the ones who aren't in China (well some people are protesting on the QT there, otherwise off to education camp they go)? There are probably more Chinese people protesting on the outside than on the inside, though there are exceptions with veiled bloggers who might be inside the Chinese firewall of protection from 'evil' Western and capitalistic influences.
rogerwallace posted
| Quote: |
| Nationalism is fading fast with the advent of The New World Order. It is now become International Corporate Socialism: privatize the profit and socialise the losses. Hey china has caught on fast huh... |
Ah, back to the balance of government and capitalism. I really recommend Friedman's book 'The World is Flat'. If you look at countries that have opened up to globalism and the numbers that have been pulled out of poverty, things have improved dramatically when compared to economies that have remained closed.
Of course, one thing that he talks about that we see now is a disruption for people who are behind on the tech curve. As society has rapidly teched up, some people have been left behind, and it's hurting their effectiveness in looking for other employment and competing for the higher paying types of jobs that are available now in developed countries.
China still has a long way to go, as evidenced by the average income across the nation and the average life style, not just the growing middle and upper classes. Certainly you can survive on a lot less in some parts of China, but it depends on what kinds of modern conveniences you're used to.
I don't really think nationalism is fading, but certainly companies and individuals and groups of individuals, are exerting more influence. Friedman looks at examples of concerted efforts by people using technology to force and cajole companies to change their behavior. Yes, no one is above market influences, look at the pirates Microsoft and their battles with the EU and the US justice system as well as some consumer backlashes. Why do you think Starbucks got involved in buying fair-trade grown coffee and McDonalds now is finally changing some of its menus?
Google is one of the ones leading the expansion of free internet software (freeware on the net). Partly to compete with Microsoft, and partly realizing that this is the current worldwide trend, so rather than fight it, think how best to work with it. Many companies are building add on applications as well as selling things that improve these free packages. People are choosing these things, not any manufactured consent.
Elections are being influenced by bloggers who dig up facts that disprove traditional media and political spin doctor 'facts' and statements. the truth doesn't 'hide' as long and as easily as it used to. Information is more available than ever before, just improving the access to it is part of the battle and educating people how to find it.
The world is changing, though I suppose you can keep fighting that trend. People are starting to choose ebooks over traditional copies. Does that mean I'm wrong to prefer a paper copy? No, but I have to recognize that more and more people are moving to electronic versions and how that might affect students that I teach (and whether I should continue using traditional textbooks in my classes).
Socialism is alive and well, no system is ever perfect. If you can show me an ideal model to replace the capitalistic ones that are used, please do so. Even China uses a modified one as practiced under a very nationalistic government battling to keep the increasing wired population safe from outside influence , and it looks like Russia is to some degree, though the amount of corruption there sometimes overshadows business practices.
Getting a balance of government and business to manage things is not a bad thing. You as an individual have more power than ever, you just have to recognize that truth rather than just raving about 'lost' history. People are living their history now. Try moving out of the museum and into the real world.
Look, we're having this conversation on Dave's rather than a forum we created. You can link this conversation to numerous other people around the world, some of who might agree with you that history is being neglected. Persuade them to join your cause and petition education boards around the world to change.
I listen to my colleagues who seem to have similar ideas. Some of them are living in the past, thinking that university education in the UK is still relatively free (wish it was to some degree), whereas that model in reality disappeared a few years ago.
Please educate us about your alternative? Is it grassroots education? Home schooling via Internet?
Let us know. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bulgogiboy
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just to get back to the original question from the OP:
If you want to be involved in education long-term and be viewed as someone desirable to employers then you need to get a degree. As other posters have pointed out, a degree is no guarantee of teaching ability whatsover (in fact one of the best teachers I ever met had no formal teaching qualifications at all), but it's what is expected of you by virtually all decent ESL employers these days. It's a standard by which people can judge your willingness to commit substantial time and effort to something. It's not a perfect standard but at the moment it's sufficient.
And guess what? If you want to advance to higher-paying jobs, or even be a strong contender in a lot of mid-range jobs, you will need to seriously consider doing a master's in an ESL-related subject at some point. I've been accepted for my MSc in TESOL starting this September, I dont know how much practical use it will have in the classroom but if it gives me more options then so be it! Having a first degree is no big deal anymore, at least not in the UK, where it's estimated around 30% of the population have a BA/BSc degree or its equivalent. I hear its about 27% in the US. Dont you, as a teacher, want to at least have a formal education level equal to 1 in 3 people?
Come and join the exclusive club of about 750 million degree holders  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tudodude
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 82
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:35 am Post subject: Re: What ever happened to the best man for the job. |
|
|
[quote="Rooster_2006"]
| tudodude wrote: |
Over the last 5 years I have seen more and more doors closed to those not degree qualified.
Is it fair???
Does a degree in Liberal Arts at age 22 with ZERO teaching experience mean you will be better than a 7 year pro who loves to teach and see students grow?
If it does I will pooh myself.
I am not sure it is fair, but I understand the direction and why the industry is going in that direction.
Discuss (this old cheastnut again) please.
Dizzy |
Your statement has a blatant contradiction in it.
You say it's okay to arbitrarily exclude a 22-year-old, but not okay to arbitrarily exclude a non-degree-holder.
I'd argue that at least a 22-year-old with a degree hasn't screwed up his life. A 30-year-old or 40-year-old with no degree? What has he been doing with his life, watching television and eating ice cream? How hard is it to cobble together ten credit hours a year for 12 years? Someone with a level of intellectual curiosity that low would not make a good teacher, in my mind.
I never said anything about excluding people.
I am pissed that 3 friends have had to relocate. They happened to be amazing in the classroom. Years of experience but forced to relocate, one even having to leave his gf and kid! Thats not right.
Then to top it all we get 'replacements'.
All 3, full of it, almost no classroom skills.... Unless you count playing hangman for an hour, quite young (22) not that is an issue but the average 22 year old male in SE Asia is not exactly grade A reliable for work. Totally reliable for turning up with hangovers and stories of shagging though. I would have the old boys back in a heartbeat.
Regarding your other comments. I don't know all they did in the early years after school but I don't think they were ever in a position to follow a degree path.
You show amazing arrogance in deciding all about them by knowing nothing about them.
Someone with a level arrogance and judgmentalness that high would not make a good teacher, in my mind.
Just my thoughts |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tudodude
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 82
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:47 am Post subject: Re: points on points |
|
|
| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
| rogerwallace wrote: |
| my score came to 57. how can a 22 y.o. or a non degree get anything much higher than 20? The future is having some paper(not a copy of deploma but transcripts). From someone who has had to make up a lot of ground because of past folks who had these so called low scores, I would welcome those with higher type scores! |
Wow, 57 is pretty good, as is the 62 of the previous poster.
I'm 23 years old, by the way, and therefore a member of the group the OP is railing against.
I suppose my points system does make it hard for a young person to score decently. I still think I could beat the average 40-year-old who decided to take a year off from real estate, though. There are plenty of unqualified middle-aged people, too -- it's not just young people.
Honestly, to have enough FTs to staff its buxiban and public schools, China would have to set the bar low, like 15 points. Any higher and it'd price itself right out of the market. Still, I maintain that a points system is a fairer way to evaluate incoming teachers than age or number of irrelevant degrees completed. |
MOD EDIT I am not against any group. But I have seen proof that the current system is failing students in the city I work.
The question was "What happened to the best man for the job?" Meaning employers now can't choose who they know is best, only who gets a visa.... Not everytime, but in my experience a motivated and experienced teacher beats a motivated and inexperienced teacher everytime. They are just not as good looking. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: Re: points on points |
|
|
| tudodude wrote: |
| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
| rogerwallace wrote: |
| my score came to 57. how can a 22 y.o. or a non degree get anything much higher than 20? The future is having some paper(not a copy of deploma but transcripts). From someone who has had to make up a lot of ground because of past folks who had these so called low scores, I would welcome those with higher type scores! |
Wow, 57 is pretty good, as is the 62 of the previous poster.
I'm 23 years old, by the way, and therefore a member of the group the OP is railing against.
I suppose my points system does make it hard for a young person to score decently. I still think I could beat the average 40-year-old who decided to take a year off from real estate, though. There are plenty of unqualified middle-aged people, too -- it's not just young people.
Honestly, to have enough FTs to staff its buxiban and public schools, China would have to set the bar low, like 15 points. Any higher and it'd price itself right out of the market. Still, I maintain that a points system is a fairer way to evaluate incoming teachers than age or number of irrelevant degrees completed. |
MOD EDIT I am not against any group. But I have seen proof that the current system is failing students in the city I work.
The question was "What happened to the best man for the job?" Meaning employers now can't choose who they know is best, only who gets a visa.... Not everytime, but in my experience a motivated and experienced teacher beats a motivated and inexperienced teacher everytime. They are just not as good looking. |
You keep on talking about "experience" and "motivation."
If you're so experienced, and if you're so motivated, if you've been in the game so many years, why do you still not have a degree? No offense, buddy, but unless you're radically younger than I'm assuming you are, your planning sucks.
At least I can sympathize with a 21, 22, or 23-year-old who just hasn't had time to finish a degree yet. I'm betting you're over 30 years old, though, given that you say that you have seven years experience. What's your excuse for not having a degree? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rogerwallace
Joined: 24 Nov 2004
Posts: 66
Location: California
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:36 pm Post subject: to a degree... |
|
|
As a licenced teacher in both Nevada and California-holder of a masters in education in cross cultural teaching- and the fact the a teachers licence in California is a 5th year(after obtaining a bachelor); I have seen the expectations in China of FT's as Nothing compared to that of licenced teachers here. They don't even have education majors in graduate school!
When I explained WHAT my us degrees consisted of , they were dumbfounded! A major in whatever is all about that subject, except for philosophy-which is Marx(and they didn't even know that).
What the hell is oral english with out writing,grammar,reading skills? It's about a 3-5000 word vocabulary and thats it! Oh, and its all rote with no understanding of its basis.
Having years of experience in horticulture, I know that its all Latin based, which is unknown in china, because none of the chinese teachers of admin ever learned that method-they learned english through attrition!
As for history, its not living in the past but understanding the present and why its happening, as well as whats to come.
Yes, the internet is good for reading the paper etc but supplanting the in-classroom environment-experience-there is no substitute.
Unlike California, most states have a bachelor of education degree, which is why they are scrambling to make up the difference to come up with national standards.
It's a Brave New World Order now... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| gaijinalways wrote: |
Getting a balance of government and business to manage things is not a bad thing. You as an individual have more power than ever, you just have to recognize that truth rather than just raving about 'lost' history. People are living their history now. Try moving out of the museum and into the real world.
Look, we're having this conversation on Dave's rather than a forum we created. You can link this conversation to numerous other people around the world, some of who might agree with you that history is being neglected. Persuade them to join your cause and petition education boards around the world to change.
I listen to my colleagues who seem to have similar ideas. Some of them are living in the past, thinking that university education in the UK is still relatively free (wish it was to some degree), whereas that model in reality disappeared a few years ago.
Please educate us about your alternative? Is it grassroots education? Home schooling via Internet?
Let us know. |
Hi Gaijina,
Not sure if you were addressing my comments.
One problem in any such discussions is assuming that one's base assumptions are accepted by others. If they are not, then we are not communicating, we are merely expressing our thoughts - and failing to understand the roots of disagreement while thinking we are right. The great thing is to dig to the other person's root assumptions and really understand them, and the greatest thing is to be consciously aware of your own.
In looking at your words, I see
| Quote: |
| Getting a balance of government and business to manage things is not a bad thing. |
.
We can't communicate because we disagree from the get-go. Anything you say based on this, for me, is non-sequitur. We already disagree on what is good, and you don't even know on what basis I disagree with you.
It's fine to say "recognize the truth" - but that's the point. We all think we have. When you characterize your opponents as "raving", then you have left logical argument and are merely engaging in unsupported and emotional ad hominem attacks. You say "living in the past", which is a fuzzy concept that, at best, expresses imprecise thought. At worst I can take it literally and start asking about the time machine. (Mr Atoz! Where's the atavachron?  ) Point is, it's an expression that means what YOU want it to mean, and is used to dismiss your colleagues' ideas without really examining them. It doesn't express something objective that we could commonly understand.
Your idea that a museum does not express the real world is quite telling. Museums have a specific purpose - they exist for a reason and based on what you've said, I'm not sure that you grasp what that reason is - your statement implies that museums are useless things that have no relation to our present lives. The same goes for your general attitude towards history - you seem to be saying that history is irrelevant, or of only small import in understanding something. Here we disagree sharply. I say history is foundational to understanding a thing, and I would ask how many intelligent people here really think history of little significance?
I don't think you can defend a position that says history doesn't matter. It would be much more convincing - if you wanted to convince at all - to show that you DO know the history, and that you haven't done that suggests that you don't know it. It's better to correct holes in knowledge with knowledge than to deny the need for knowledge.
Knowledge of the present without knowledge of the past makes all knowledge of the present, statistics, arguments, etc useless. It's the formula: Those that don't know history are doomed to ____________. (fill in the blank) (And no, the answer is not "fill in the blank" - although maybe it is...) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
rogerwallace posted
| Quote: |
| Your idea that a museum does not express the real world is quite telling. Museums have a specific purpose - they exist for a reason and based on what you've said, I'm not sure that you grasp what that reason is - your statement implies that museums are useless things that have no relation to our present lives. |
I implied 'living in a museum' is not a good thing. I have nothing against museums per se.
| Quote: |
Quote:
Getting a balance of government and business to manage things is not a bad thing. |
My impression was that you didn't like government or big business. Nothing you've shown me has shown me otherwise.
AS to raving, you and rus seem to like your 'conspiracy' theories IMO. So as I said, I think the two of you need to look at where we are now, rather than always worrying about where we've been.
rogerwallace posted
| Quote: |
| I don't think you can defend a position that says history doesn't matter. It would be much more convincing - if you wanted to convince at all - to show that you DO know the history, and that you haven't done that suggests that you don't know it. It's better to correct holes in knowledge with knowledge than to deny the need for knowledge. |
Now you lost me. It's important that I can recite educational history back to you? No, I would say it's not. Let's say the two of you haven't shown me why it's so essential to improving the situation that we have now, that is having an encyclopedia version of history.
Let me give you analogy. If we're going to invent something new, do we always need to know the history of all the other inventions? No, we don't. Of course we'd probably want some context and need to know the current situation, but not much more.
So again, I'm not saying that history doesn't matter, I just think it's not as important or significant as you're making it out to be for what we're talking about, reforming American education.
rogerwallace posted
| Quote: |
| Those that don't know history are doomed to ____________. |
Yes, it's nice to quote people (Santayana), but again just knowing about the past is not enough to avoid repeating it. I think you have to be careful when you literally start believing everything you read.
rogerwallace posted
| Quote: |
| As for history, its not living in the past but understanding the present and why its happening, as well as whats to come. |
Oops, you stole the words right out of my mouth. Now, let's try and put that into practice... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| gaijinalways wrote: |
rogerwallace posted
| Quote: |
| Your idea that a museum does not express the real world is quite telling. Museums have a specific purpose - they exist for a reason and based on what you've said, I'm not sure that you grasp what that reason is - your statement implies that museums are useless things that have no relation to our present lives. |
I implied 'living in a museum' is not a good thing. I have nothing against museums per se.
| Quote: |
Quote:
Getting a balance of government and business to manage things is not a bad thing. |
My impression was that you didn't like government or big business. Nothing you've shown me has shown me otherwise.
AS to raving, you and rus seem to like your 'conspiracy' theories IMO. So as I said, I think the two of you need to look at where we are now, rather than always worrying about where we've been.
rogerwallace posted
| Quote: |
| I don't think you can defend a position that says history doesn't matter. It would be much more convincing - if you wanted to convince at all - to show that you DO know the history, and that you haven't done that suggests that you don't know it. It's better to correct holes in knowledge with knowledge than to deny the need for knowledge. |
Now you lost me. It's important that I can recite educational history back to you? No, I would say it's not. Let's say the two of you haven't shown me why it's so essential to improving the situation that we have now, that is having an encyclopedia version of history.
Let me give you analogy. If we're going to invent something new, do we always need to know the history of all the other inventions? No, we don't. Of course we'd probably want some context and need to know the current situation, but not much more.
So again, I'm not saying that history doesn't matter, I just think it's not as important or significant as you're making it out to be for what we're talking about, reforming American education.
rogerwallace posted
| Quote: |
| Those that don't know history are doomed to ____________. |
Yes, it's nice to quote people (Santayana), but again just knowing about the past is not enough to avoid repeating it. I think you have to be careful when you literally start believing everything you read.
rogerwallace posted
| Quote: |
| As for history, its not living in the past but understanding the present and why its happening, as well as whats to come. |
Oops, you stole the words right out of my mouth. Now, let's try and put that into practice... |
I don't see any point in continuing when you not only do not really address my points, but when you don't even read carefully enough to distinguish between Roger and me, and treat us as if we were saying the same things (which we're not) and attribute my words to Roger.
Sure, I could refute your analogy - but it's not worth it, given the lack of serious engagement. A productive civil dialog has to have the participants carefully considering their opponent's views, identifying what they agree with and finding weak spots in the opponent's arguments (and correcting weak ones in their own). It's really boring when everyone merely expresses their own views. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
Rusmeister,
No, I'm not confusing the two of you (Rogerwallace and you), but you do both seem to agree that education is the problem. You both agree that the way it is administered is a problem. Reading between the lines, you both seem to espouse that the current American public education is akin to mind control.
My argument would be, first what do either of you propose as an alternative? I have given my brief suggestion, trying to promote more mathematics and science. I also think that coupled with a liberal arts approach we can encourage a more creative environment as well. In other words, it's not good to have people study only a limited number of fields, as they tend to have tunnel vision. Many solutions these days need an application of blended thinking so to speak. Fields that were previously thought to have little relation to each other are often being combined to create new solutions.
In other words, we don't need to throw out the baby with the bath water just because some adjustments are needed IMO.
Second, I don't think the current political system is as bad as either of you think. I still think there are plenty elements of democracy in the US, especially when you compare it to the society where you're currently living. The supposed lack of a real democracy based on the poor education system seems to be more of a conspiracy theory IMO. Now if you were to peak more about problems with defense spending and changes in economic versus military power, than I might be more understanding and see support for your argument.
| Quote: |
People who don't know those things don't understand what they grew up in, were indoctrinated in, or even what they are looking at now. Just like slaves had practically no knowledge or tools to understand or talk about the causes of their slavery. Frederick Douglass talked about that, by the way - from first-hand experience of both ignorance and genuine education.
That's why nothing ever changes in our schools. Gatto was quite right when he said that "reforms" have a half-life of 5 years. BTW, speaking in general to all, it's good to know Gatto's credentials and history before you go knocking him. If you leave out the part about his being teacher of the year several times in NYC and once for the state of NY, then that's just prejudice. That plus 26 years of teaching is someone probably no one here has accomplished. |
I didn't leave out any of that. Since I'm not as old as Gatto is that might be difficult (having 26 years experience that is). I've been working in education since '92.
As to him being teacher of the year, gee you could argue you're using the same system you're dismissing to grade him. Ironic, isn't it? To me he sounds like a very inspirational teacher who was frustrated that the system didn't allow him as much freedom as he would have liked to mold people into the shape he wanted. For me, reality is sometimes like gravity, it keep us grounded. I think Gatto raises good solutions, but like you I think he goes too far in wanting to dismantle the whole system to 'build a freer system'.
I also think people are not as 'blind' as the slaves were as we obviously have access to much more information than they do. One important issue is being able to sift through data and analyze it.
| Quote: |
| It's really boring when everyone merely expresses their own views. |
Yes it is, and that is why instead of being cagey, you need to spell out what your position is.
Start a new thread if you think it will be clearer. We can even discuss various education systems as you earlier hinted at, looking at Russian, American and possibly Japanese as possible alternatives. We can examine the pros and cons in each system. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| gaijinalways wrote: |
Rusmeister,
No, I'm not confusing the two of you (Rogerwallace and you), but you do both seem to agree that education is the problem. You both agree that the way it is administered is a problem. Reading between the lines, you both seem to espouse that the current American public education is akin to mind control.
My argument would be, first what do either of you propose as an alternative? I have given my brief suggestion, trying to promote more mathematics and science. I also think that coupled with a liberal arts approach we can encourage a more creative environment as well. In other words, it's not good to have people study only a limited number of fields, as they tend to have tunnel vision. Many solutions these days need an application of blended thinking so to speak. Fields that were previously thought to have little relation to each other are often being combined to create new solutions.
In other words, we don't need to throw out the baby with the bath water just because some adjustments are needed IMO.
Second, I don't think the current political system is as bad as either of you think. I still think there are plenty elements of democracy in the US, especially when you compare it to the society where you're currently living. The supposed lack of a real democracy based on the poor education system seems to be more of a conspiracy theory IMO. Now if you were to peak more about problems with defense spending and changes in economic versus military power, than I might be more understanding and see support for your argument.
| Quote: |
People who don't know those things don't understand what they grew up in, were indoctrinated in, or even what they are looking at now. Just like slaves had practically no knowledge or tools to understand or talk about the causes of their slavery. Frederick Douglass talked about that, by the way - from first-hand experience of both ignorance and genuine education.
That's why nothing ever changes in our schools. Gatto was quite right when he said that "reforms" have a half-life of 5 years. BTW, speaking in general to all, it's good to know Gatto's credentials and history before you go knocking him. If you leave out the part about his being teacher of the year several times in NYC and once for the state of NY, then that's just prejudice. That plus 26 years of teaching is someone probably no one here has accomplished. |
I didn't leave out any of that. Since I'm not as old as Gatto is that might be difficult (having 26 years experience that is). I've been working in education since '92.
As to him being teacher of the year, gee you could argue you're using the same system you're dismissing to grade him. Ironic, isn't it? To me he sounds like a very inspirational teacher who was frustrated that the system didn't allow him as much freedom as he would have liked to mold people into the shape he wanted. For me, reality is sometimes like gravity, it keep us grounded. I think Gatto raises good solutions, but like you I think he goes too far in wanting to dismantle the whole system to 'build a freer system'.
I also think people are not as 'blind' as the slaves were as we obviously have access to much more information than they do. One important issue is being able to sift through data and analyze it.
| Quote: |
| It's really boring when everyone merely expresses their own views. |
Yes it is, and that is why instead of being cagey, you need to spell out what your position is.
Start a new thread if you think it will be clearer. We can even discuss various education systems as you earlier hinted at, looking at Russian, American and possibly Japanese as possible alternatives. We can examine the pros and cons in each system. |
Hi, Gaijina,
First, you must admit that it would be somewhat annoying for me to take your words and attribute them to another user, which is what you did to mine. And that while Roger and I might agree on some things, our positions are not identical and should not be treated as such - with weaknesses in the arguments of one being treated as weaknesses in the arguments of the other, and so on.
That said, I think that in a sense, you are quite right to insist on the ideal. It is true that in order to take any action that is to have any actual effect, to change something that is, for better or for worse, such as public education, then people must agree on the ideal. Only that's where it bogs down right away - we DON'T agree on the ideal. That's why nothing CAN be done about public education. They always speak of reform, but they never speak of the form. You can't reform something without having a definite idea of form. And it is the form that we will disagree about - but in the meantime, there IS an existing form, and parents are required by law to submit their children to that molding machine, whether they think its form right or not.
Since we cannot agree on the ideal, the only effective thing we can actually achieve any possible common understanding on is on the ideal that has been actually enacted and that we are now living with the consequences of.
Your own suggestions, to me, are useless because they do not address what is to be the philosophy of the institution - what are the answers to the questions: "What is the nature of man?" "What is his purpose in life?" Once we agreed on the answers, we could proceed to your proposals - only we won't agree on the answers. Any system you would construct must have definite answers to those questions - about which we will disagree - and will operate on those assumptions, and aim at forming/developing "educating" children based on them. If I asked you how Dewey's ideas advocated and ultimately succeeding in achieving change in that base philosophy, could you answer? Do you know what his philosophy was - what he ultimately believed to be true regarding those questions and how that impacts what the schools actually do, and are required to do today? That is not "living in the past", that is understanding the present because we KNOW the past. So, I think Gatto's suggestions about what to do are useless - in that much I agree with you - but only because he, too, fails to address the problem of philosophy. A little GK Chesterton would enlighten him considerably on that problem. But his findings on what has been done are spot on, and i think mostly correct. Certainly, I confirmed the very details I was most skeptical about.
Our worldviews are so different that it is unlikely that we can come to any common understanding of what ought to be done. But we can at least commonly establish what HAS been done. Once you know that, you can understand the present - and this includes why people think and believe the things they do today, which radically differs from what their great-grandparents thought and believed, and you would want to know more about the mechanisms that were used to achieve that change. The chief ones I have identified are public schooling and the media, and the people running the media are largely products of public education. It is a great mistake to think that there can be such a thing as education without a philosophy governing it.
PS: the various state education systems pretty much ALL descend from the Prussian system. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rogerwallace
Joined: 24 Nov 2004
Posts: 66
Location: California
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:22 pm Post subject: mixed up ? |
|
|
And that while Roger and I might agree on some things, our positions are not identical and should not be treated as such - with weaknesses in the arguments of one being treated as weaknesses in the arguments of the other, and so on.
I don't think folks are on the same page here!!
If you think this is nuts-you should be in public schools now. This is indicitive of why everything is not working.
But its been fun,thankx |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
Oh, my, but I never did state that your positions (rogerwallace and Rusmeister) were exactly the same, don't know where you got that from.
Rusmeister posted
| Quote: |
| It is true that in order to take any action that is to have any actual effect, to change something that is, for better or for worse, such as public education, then people must agree on the ideal. Only that's where it bogs down right away - we DON'T agree on the ideal. That's why nothing CAN be done about public education. They always speak of reform, but they never speak of the form. You can't reform something without having a definite idea of form. And it is the form that we will disagree about - but in the meantime, there IS an existing form, and parents are required by law to submit their children to that molding machine, whether they think its form right or not. |
I disagree. I don't think a molding machine is quite the way I would look at it or describe it. If you take this approach to life, nothing would ever be changed.
As to whether you agree with the current curriculum or not, home schooling would be an option or moving to another locale. That and having outside tutoring, whether at home or at another place.
Rusmeister posted
| Quote: |
| ..Your own suggestions, to me, are useless because they do not address what is to be the philosophy of the institution.. |
Oh my. This is where I disagree with you about an ideal, though I don't see why this can't be put in as a component of the program, rather than as a defining priniciple.
Rusmeister posted
| Quote: |
| "What is the nature of man?" "What is his purpose in life?" ...Any system you would construct must have definite answers to those questions |
I would argue that it's not necessary to answer those as they are so general as to possibly be meaningless. I think more important is allowing people to gain some knowledge and be able to address issues for themselves.
Rusmeister posted
| Quote: |
| So, I think Gatto's suggestions about what to do are useless - in that much I agree with you - but only because he, too, fails to address the problem of philosophy. |
No, I think they are useless as I don't think a majority of people can take advantage of what he's asking people to do, home schooling. I think home schooling itself is better in some ways, but as I noted earlier, it works better in my opinion (and based on my experiences with it) if one of the parents is a teacher and/or you have a very motivated and very independent student. Might be better in some cases as a supplemental component.
Rusmeister posted
| Quote: |
| If I asked you how Dewey's ideas advocated and ultimately succeeding in achieving change in that base philosophy, could you answer? Do you know what his philosophy was - what he ultimately believed to be true regarding those questions and how that impacts what the schools actually do, and are required to do today? |
As I stated above, I think it's somewhat irrelevant. I personally think it amounts to too much 'navel meditating'.
Rusmeister posted
| Quote: |
Our worldviews are so different that it is unlikely that we can come to any common understanding of what ought to be done. But we can at least commonly establish what HAS been done. Once you know that, you can understand the present - and this includes why people think and believe the things they do today, which radically differs from what their great-grandparents thought and believed, and you would want to know more about the mechanisms that were used to achieve that change. The chief ones I have identified are public schooling and the media, and the people running the media are largely products of public education. It is a great mistake to think that there can be such a thing as education without a philosophy governing it.
|
Oh boy, it's nice to explain everything so easily. Have you ever thought that things might be different because times have changed? I have seen others professing that the media has changed everyone, but I don't buy that whole argument, especially nowadays where fewer people actually pay as much attention to traditional media.
As to a philosophy, I think I have already covered that, and I've yet to see you or rogerwallace show me one or a replacement program for the current one (that you both criticize) that might work. I suppose the closest you've (rusmeister) come to that is backing some of what Gatto wants.
It's one thing to complain about the current system, another to not offer anything as a suitable system as a replacement.
But please start that other thread, I'm sure rogerwallace can enlighten us about the Chinese system. I have opinions I'd like to add based on discussions with a DR. of philosophy on the Indian system and how it differs from the US one. And you can fill us in on the Russian one. Some comparisons would be useful and probably move the discussion further along than just keep referring us to suggested 'philosophy lessons'.
I do appreciate the links you've provided, interesting reading. I just really think that modifying the system is better than ripping it down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
