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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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 Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: |
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tut tut poor gregor you can argue with me - you do sound a bit of a language genuis - and probably a big expert in Chinese security proceedures to boot.
Well first of all - this L1/L2 thing - and how we tackle the problem very much depends on the age of the student. In my little kindy business we always employ english fluent teachers for simple translation to help along that element of the class that don't understand (of course no direct grammar stuff here - important not to kill the fun in language at this stage - is it). Kinda look on this approach as language scaffolding - Chinese supports the English - and then as language is learnt scaffolding is taken away - only to be replaced by new L1 scaffolding to support the next language elements. This approach was initialy inspired by my experiences of immigrant children coming into the Danish school system with a very limited knowledge of the Danish language - giving them access to danish teachers who could speak their L1 seemed to give their Danish learning abilities a kick start - after which immersion into an L2 in an L2 dominated culture really did do the job. Problem with learning English in China, gregor, is that the students never do get into an L2 dominated culture (with the rather weak exception of those talk English only classes - where all those bored kids are whispering to each other in Chinese) - so in a way were always at a starting position until the normal student is mature and motivated enough to take on the self learning process and study her way into learning English (of course there always the exceptional exception - like gregor - those who just seem to be able to breath an L2 in  ).
As for older learners (grammar is more important here mate) - well according to surveys they defy popular perceptions and can generaly learn an L2 more easily than the youngsters - partly through that ability of being able to learn an L2 through their L1. Another part of this enhanced ability has to be something to do with the greater levels of self-motivation and seriousness in the desire to succeed that often come with maturity - but must also be linked to a greater understanding of learning materials and advice from teachers, which are linked to those explanations of the nuances and rules of the L2, which are inveriable communicated in the form of the L1. Of course all this bumph aint no good unless the student is allowed to practise these new found skills (the art of speaking) in an environment that tries to create an L2 atmosphere - hey-presto the white language monkeys are allowed to dance.
To persecute local teachers because they use Chinese seems very short sighted and indeed just another symptom of following the masters orders - but then again i can good see why EF would like to premote the English only system, since it frees the company of having to employ skilled local assistants for their FT's, and bolsters the so-called expert status of that hard-pressed overworked flock who teach for this company. Indeed I'd go as far as saying that a FT's expert status would be greatly enhanced if the FT could teach English - partly in Chinese - I know I wish I could be better at it |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| When I was a kid in Birmingham our neighbour |
was also a kid from Birmingham..but the one across the pond.... |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:31 am Post subject: English First--Director of Studies |
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CJ gal, yor like a lill "tiger cat" waitin for yor lill meal to come  ...i didn't know "ponds" attracted ya  ...worms 
Now, have ya come up with something for this thread's topic yet? 
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| The idiots I mentioned were the people who hired teachers without letting them know what they were getting into. |
and those are the ones at the EF centers in China  ...no flaming, it's the truth...i've done it...i'm one of those "idiots" myself  ...under those EF recruiting "circumstances" and the EF centers' organizational structure ...yap, i did what i was told to do and i didn't do what i was told not to do...i be'cha've dona same thing, haven'cha?
"The thing" is that I have refused to go on with "THAT", but you keep it on
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| Are you drunk? High? |
 unusually hostile from ya ...to answer your questions, NO....but sometimes I wish I were reading some of your posts with all due respect
I know you can do much better, and that's why I still regard you for one of those hard working EF employees that is up for sharing his EF experiences on
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| Please give me something to argue! |
how about those previous EF AOM's work "ethics" that I've provided you with in my previous posts..have ya missed that...or have ya been on that EF mooncakes there sorry, let me remember yet another one... how about your "EF phone interviews" when recruiting ...do ya really tell yor recruitees over the phone that they're up for 20 or 50 students in their "future" classrooms ...kinda hard to see that with the EF teaching ideology/methodology
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| .... life is kind of boring for me right now. |
 ...i can see
I sure hope that we will be soon, since I do not wish to get deeper into the EF English First, its AOMs, its AOMs qualifications, its AOMs impact on the franchise, its franchisors in China, its recruiting, the EF franchisors' agreements with the EF employers in China, the latest EF academic product and attempts to pay the DOSs to rewrite the EF books, FTs misfortunes with their farce EF centers and so on and on....
An update on EF worldwide advanture with a Thai EF going the same way as Chinese
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=38734
Peace to the founder of EF
and
cheers and beers to the hard working FTs in China 
____________________________________________________________
Mcburgers taste great at McEF |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| I sure hope that we will be soon, since I do not wish to get deeper into the EF English First, its AOMs, its AOMs qualifications, its AOMs impact on the franchise, its franchisors in China, its recruiting, the EF franchisors' agreements with the EF employers in China, the latest EF academic product and attempts to pay the DOSs to rewrite the EF books, FTs misfortunes with their farce EF centers and so on and on.... |
Oh, I think that most everybody on this forum, let alone thread, knows THAT to be untrue. You LOVE getting into it about EF. That's mostly what you do here.
Anyway, yes, of course I tell the teachers what they'll be getting into, including possible class size and everything else. I also ask them to save my emails, as I put these things in writing to them, as well. If they ever came back to me about something we'd discussed, I can say, "Look. We already discussed this." And they can do the same.
The HUGE classes are not EF classes. In some schools, teachers get farmed out to other places, including high schools. This possibility is not specified in the contract, but it's not against it, either, so if it's a possibility, I tell them before they come. I'd rather be short-staffed than have a bunch of disgruntled teachers.
Feel free to make all the nasty comments you want about people who are willing to do those things. I've had a bunch of teachers REQUEST those classes. SOME teachers LOVE them.
And, sure, my boss was angry when he discovered my policy of full disclosure...until I proved that I could actually get better teachers for the school that way. In fact, the change that made recruiting more difficult was the way they changed processing visa changes and applications. Nothing to do with me.
I don't remember what you said about AOMs in previous posts. Sorry.
And vikdk - what you described sounds a lot like my own experience as a language learner when I'm working on my own. I have some FANTASTIC software that does just that. You have English translations available, and at the very beginning, they have characters and pinyin, but they use pinyin as a temporary crutch and eventually remove that crutch...and by the time it happens, you have stopped using pinyin in the first place. I'll post a topic about it in the non-job section, I think.
But I digress. The difference is that I AM in an L2 environment. You're obviously right - the kiddies never get that L2 environment.
That is what EF wants to create for the students, and of course local management usually fails in that, miserably (it helps none at all when local management can't function in English themselves, which often happens).
And, really, I'm not bragging about my language abilities. I suck at learning languages. My study habits suck, as well.
I just mention that I DO make an effort to learn, just so that I'll know what my students are going through. It's a good idea for teachers - particularly newbies - to do.
In China, I have the further incentive that my wife's family speak no English and I'd like to be able to interact with them. But after three and a half years, my Chinese is EMBARRASSINGLY bad. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: |
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CJ gal, yor like a lill "tiger cat" waitin for yor lill meal to come ...i didn't know "ponds" attracted ya ...worms
Now, have ya come up with something for this thread's topic yet? |
yes I have...your an idiot |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Gregor"]
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| yes, of course I tell the teachers what they'll be getting into, including possible class size and everything else. I also ask them to save my emails, as I put these things in writing to them, as well. If they ever came back to me about something we'd discussed, I can say, "Look. We already discussed this." And they can do the same.. |
Good recruiting techniques I must say. I'd hope my EF employer wouldn't change some "strategies" after those teachers' arrival then...but then I guess you are so creative and know always what to do or what to say
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The HUGE classes are not EF classes. In some schools, teachers get farmed out to other places, including high schools. This possibility is not specified in the contract, but it's not against it, either, so if it's a possibility, I tell them before they come. I'd rather be short-staffed than have a bunch of disgruntled teachers.
Feel free to make all the nasty comments you want about people who are willing to do those things. I've had a bunch of teachers REQUEST those classes. SOME teachers LOVE them. |
rather interesting explanation there..and fair enough to the employers anyway...i be'ch yor teachers've LOVED not only those classes but also you ...how's that for a "nasty comment"
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| sure, my boss was angry when he discovered my policy of full disclosure...until I proved that I could actually get better teachers for the school that way |
Wow ..recruiting's booming in EF
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| I don't remember what you said about AOMs in previous posts. Sorry. |
No problemo..which one now...there've been 4 in past 4 years i think...i guess the one at the March 2004 EF conference was full of creative ideas and that's the one you mean...he took my disclosure/info about the events at my EF center and created a work shop for all the eF employers/CMs/DOSs there ..well now I can laugh..but you should've seen the face of my employer then
CJ gal, come one...you can do better than that...aren't you enjoying reading on EF...you've never known that stuff before...give us some gratitude, will ya?
Peace
and
cheers and beers to all |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| The difference is that I AM in an L2 environment. You're obviously right - the kiddies never get that L2 environment. |
thinking through this problem in another way - learning an L2 through total immersion - you know as in being set in an L2 environment without any language aid, as in being with your wifes family when your wife is absent - would provide an learning situation where you were almost forced to learn the language through pratical neccesity. But just think how many hours it would take to get you fluent, and how much frustration would be produced through the trial and error methods that would be encountered through your language experimentation!!!
Aint it so much easier when your wife is around to give you some pointers in English - I wouldn't mind betting that you experiment with a lot of your newly aquired Chinese on your wife - and a lot of feedback, tips, and correcting of mistakes comes back to you from her in English
Why should it be any different for teachers with the ability to teach English through the partial use of Chinese not make use of this skill - having a go at them without really considering the direction of their efforts does seem rather short sighted to me - especially when an argument could be made that the mixedL1/L2 environment could be a far more effective learning space for limited ability students with a limited amount of time in a language learning situation (for example -the twice weekly 1 hour class for the youngest learners). After all most of those wonderfull stories of small kids picking up English in a few months when they immigrate to English speaking countries dont really take into account the almost 24/7 nature of their new language classroom - and you reckon EF are trying to simulate this type of language learning environment in their English only classrooms - don't make me laugh gregor.
By the way gregor is your Chinese good enough yet that you can learn more of it in a Chinese only environment - how much concentration and effort do you have to use to understand and participate in this type of environment - do you have an invigorating feeling of learning after an hour of such a session, or are you totaly whacked out, or even just turned off |
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Tessio
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 140
Location: In a New York state of mind.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: |
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CJ wrote: "yes I have...your an idiot"
Wonderful.
War Eagle!! |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: |
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vikdk wrote:
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| I wouldn't mind betting that you experiment with a lot of your newly aquired Chinese on your wife - and a lot of feedback, tips, and correcting of mistakes comes back to you from her in English |
You'd lose the bet, if there were a way to verify.
I practice what I preach, vikdk. When my wife is helping with my Chinese, I won't LET her talk to me in English. I HATE that. It's like a game, and if English enters the game, then I LOSE.
By the way, perhaps I never mentioned this, but my wife spoke not a WORD of English when we met. Even when she WANTS to help by translating, it's not very helpful, because her English simply wasn't much use.
She and her family correct me, but the corrections are always made in Chinese. ONE WORD of English, and I break in with 没有汉语!!
Your entire post is based on a false assumption.
I take a lot of opposition to my ideas in China, and I have learned to live with it. A parent or student thinks that a 100% target language approach is wrong? OK. Fine. They can do what they want. I'm the expert (and, by the way, I happen to be an expert on this particular subject - make fun of that as much as you want, but it remains a fact). If you want to ignore my advice, that is fine by me. Makes my life easier. Get someone in here to translate, and see how much the students learn, and see how fast it happens.
But if you have a complaint, I don't want to hear it, because I have already addressed the problem.
I had kids in EF Dalian when I was there, and the parents took me to task. Said, "OK. Y'all have an English speaking environment for my kids? Well, summer's HERE, guy, so here's my kid. 100% English, every day, all summer. Let's see what difference it makes."
EF already HAD a summer school program, so I was pretty well up for the task. Hell, I didn't have to do ANYTHING. Just enroll the kid.
Sure enough, the difference was, to the uneducated (in foreign language teaching or learning) parents, flippin' MIRACULOUS. |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Oh, yes,
One more thing I need to respond to:
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| By the way gregor is your Chinese good enough yet that you can learn more of it in a Chinese only environment - how much concentration and effort do you have to use to understand and participate in this type of environment - do you have an invigorating feeling of learning after an hour of such a session, or are you totaly whacked out, or even just turned off |
Yes. It is utterly exhausting.
I found that I COULD learn more from a totally Chinese environment with no English. Even if I was tired and didn't want a "lesson," I just generally leanred more from not having English available. That situation forced me to be creative and understand things that might not have been so easy to understand if I had had a translator.
The point is that, even when I didn't feel like being a student, I was FORCED to be one. It was VERY stressful. But I learned a LOT from that kind of experience.
Yeah, I was happy to get home...But once I GOT home, I found my head just SWIMMING with new syntax and vocabulary. It was amazing how much I'd learned. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: |
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That situation forced me to be creative and understand things that might not have been so easy to understand if I had had a translator.
The point is that, even when I didn't feel like being a student, I was FORCED to be one. It was VERY stressful. |
Well gregor an expert in your own learning strategies you might be - but in the other role as teaching expert, try, through your own experiences, to step into the shoes of a 10 year old student in one of your EF extra curricula english classes - (you know all that good quality time they spend at your place in the evenings and weekends - after their 40+ hours behind a school desk) - how does all that exhaustion, forcing and stress motivate them towards learning English - is achieving the goal worth all the pain - would you wish to put your own kids through that kind of stuff So lets have a few words of wisdom about them and not you - and tell us specifically why you dont allow Chinese into your normal classes (this was the question I related to in my last post if you read it carefully) - which even you will acknowledge are a far different cup of tea to those summer camp type excercises - where the hours are plentifull and the lessons are daily.
By the way what do I owe you for loosing that bet  |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:42 am Post subject: |
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CJ wrote: "yes I have...your an idiot"
Wonderful.
War Eagle!!
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Tessio
Thanks, but you hadda say something bout that other school....Roll Tide....I haveta represnt..my family would disown me if I was rootin for those "other" folks...but I always appreciate another follower of southern college ball... |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:25 am Post subject: English First--Director of Studies |
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For the forums interested ones and eager to discuss broad range of issues I have begun a thread "Lets troll or discuss"
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=44356
I hope that thread will provide us all with a discussion without limits ...though restricted to work in China.
Peace to all of ya
and
cheers and beers to the hard working FTs in China |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| So lets have a few words of wisdom about them and not you - and tell us specifically why you dont allow Chinese into your normal classes |
So sorry. I thought I had answered.
I don't allow Chinese in the classes that are under my control because it's not necessary, it's distracting to the teacher (the teacher tends to be more creative if translation is not an option), and it's excellent practice for the kids, if the teacher can get them to like him or her. They'll WANT to understand, do their homework, maybe, and learn something.
I know they are overworked. I know they can't concentrate on everything. They're not my kids. They're my students, and I just want to teach them.
Would I want that sort of regime for my kids? No. But they aren't my kids. And I'm not going to take a political posture over this. I wouldn't want it for my own, but that isn't to say that everyone agrees that the Chinese system is wrong. These people live in a particularly hard world. They are going to make a fraction of what I make, as a teacher, and those are the successful ones. VERY few get wildly rich. Most of them are born into money, true, but that doesn't mean they get it so easy.
Plus, I know families who are NOT like that with their kids. The old school Chinese. That's where my wife comes from, and there are scarcely any decent jobs she could possibly get. Maybe the new way of training their kids is the right thing for them. I don't know.
And I simply don't care. THIS is how I can best do my job. And I must be doing something right because every single time my contract is up, I have offers from every place I've ever worked as a teacher, except the first one which no longer exists. Plus many others all over the world.
The students like me, even with my strict insistence on English. It simply works well.
I think a lot of teachers pretend to care about the kids just to skive and play games. A good teacher can teach the kids what they are expected to learn, and still make it fun for them. It's not easy to do, but that's what I try to do. Because I like my job and I'm not particularly interested in skiving. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:51 am Post subject: |
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They're not my kids. They're my students, and I just want to teach them.
Would I want that sort of regime for my kids? No. But they aren't my kids. |
wow they must live in terribly hard world - a hand to mouth existence, but at least there's still a Gregor
and his EF - to get you to suffer your way to the salvation of learning English.
By the way gregor - Chinese in an English classroom isn't just about translation. It's also about guidance - for example explaining the parts of our language that don't hold to the normal rules and certainly don't have anything to do with Chinese rules of language. So a few words of explanation, in Chinese, here and there, can do a great deal to simplify the learning ordeal for many students - especialy those with limited classroon time. But mind you a bit of translation in right places to the right students can also do a great deal of good aswell - especially in child classes where the standards between best and worst can vary greatly. You see all that English only stuff sometimes just favours the best student - that is unless you dumb it right down (making it as boring as ol' socks for the stars of the class). But giving that bit of extra L1 help - you know my scaffolding your crutches - can help them catch up - but also more importantly take them out of a language wilderness where they are bored into a state of coma because of a lack of understanding. Remember Gregor not everybody thrives in that type of environment you tell us about in your earlier posts - those where you have sufferd your way to learning - those that have influenced the type of learning environment you wish to create - especially not that kid who has been forced to your lessons against his will, and apparently not one of your future offspring either!!!! |
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