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What ever happened to the best man for the job.
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rusmeister

Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject:

Thanks, Gaijina! (Civility helps, even if we can't make any progress - at least we can avoid offense.) Again, the fact that you took my quotes and attributed them to Roger certainly appears to any outside party as confusion of two people. Unfortunately, we are speaking different languages. It is impossible to undertake any reasoned action at all without some kind of philosophy, let alone construct an education system. therefore, that philosophy is not "a component" - it is the thing that determines and shapes everything else. If you don't see that, then conversation is useless. The questions are so general that they are meaningful. Your answers to them are the things on which you base all of your opinions and actions. If you think that man has no soul, that this life is all there is, then you are a materialist. You will base all of your actions and conduct your education according to that worldview. If you believe in a Buddhist or Christian worldview, you will have different answers and will behave and educate accordingly. Etc. But if you don't realize that, again, all this is useless.

tudodude

Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 82

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: points on points

[quote="Rooster_2006"]

tudodude wrote:

Rooster_2006 wrote:

rogerwallace wrote:

my score came to 57. how can a 22 y.o. or a non degree get anything much higher than 20? The future is having some paper(not a copy of deploma but transcripts). From someone who has had to make up a lot of ground because of past folks who had these so called low scores, I would welcome those with higher type scores!

Wow, 57 is pretty good, as is the 62 of the previous poster.

I'm 23 years old, by the way, and therefore a member of the group the OP is railing against.

I suppose my points system does make it hard for a young person to score decently. I still think I could beat the average 40-year-old who decided to take a year off from real estate, though. There are plenty of unqualified middle-aged people, too -- it's not just young people.

Honestly, to have enough FTs to staff its buxiban and public schools, China would have to set the bar low, like 15 points. Any higher and it'd price itself right out of the market. Still, I maintain that a points system is a fairer way to evaluate incoming teachers than age or number of irrelevant degrees completed.

MOD EDIT I am not against any group. But I have seen proof that the current system is failing students in the city I work.
The question was "What happened to the best man for the job?" Meaning employers now can't choose who they know is best, only who gets a visa.... Not everytime, but in my experience a motivated and experienced teacher beats a motivated and inexperienced teacher everytime. They are just not as good looking.

You keep on talking about "experience" and "motivation."

If you're so experienced, and if you're so motivated, if you've been in the game so many years, why do you still not have a degree? No offense, buddy, but unless you're radically younger than I'm assuming you are, your planning sucks.

At least I can sympathize with a 21, 22, or 23-year-old who just hasn't had time to finish a degree yet. I'm betting you're over 30 years old, though, given that you say that you have seven years experience. What's your excuse for not having a degree?[/quot

I have a degree in counselling so I don't need an excuse.
I was a drugs counsellor in England before wanting to teach. I don't feel in anyway shape or form that degree has made me any better a teacher though.

gaijinalways

Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:56 pm Post subject:

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=68628&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75

After looking at this thread which I ran across just by chance when I was wading through the N. American forum, I think I can understand a little more where you come from. I think you're spending too much time talking about an ideal, rather than dealing with reality. If you're so concerned about government schools molding your children into something you think is 'criminal', than certainly homeschooling would be the way to go.

rusmeister posted

Quote:

Again, the fact that you took my quotes and attributed them to Roger certainly appears to any outside party as confusion of two people.

I don't see anything in my last post I attributed to rogerwallace except him living in China.

Again, I don't see your suggested alternative plan. The one I have given does have a philosophy, maybe one that is too 'realistic' for you Shocked

.

rusmeister posted

Quote:

The questions are so general that they are meaningful. Your answers to them are the things on which you base all of your opinions and actions.

They might be, but again, what is your philosophy for education?

rusmeister posted

Quote:

If you think that man has no soul, that this life is all there is, then you are a materialist. You will base all of your actions and conduct your education according to that worldview. If you believe in a Buddhist or Christian worldview, you will have different answers and will behave and educate accordingly. Etc. But if you don't realize that, again, all this is useless.

Yes, you might. And if you have teachers from different backgrounds, what will you get then? Alphabet soup Cool

or the tower of Babel?

Indoctrination is right! I know now that reading Heidegger, Aristotle, Plato, Locke etc. helped me and you to see the light (not sure if it's reason, but...).

So was part of the philosophy moving to a place where one culture is practiced (your words in the mentioned thread from the N. American forum)? And now no one questions that you home school your kids as the public schools there don't have an ESL/EFL progam?

Interestingly enough, my ex-Russian student who I met for a coffee the other day thought that Russian public schools and society allowed freedom as long as you didn't talk about 'certain' topics. Free indeed to think whatever you like, as long as you don't share it with your neighbors.

gaijinalways

Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:37 pm Post subject:

tudodude posted

Quote:

I have a degree in counselling so I don't need an excuse.
I was a drugs counsellor in England before wanting to teach. I don't feel in anyway shape or form that degree has made me any better a teacher though.

The degree itself doesn't help you to be a better teacher, but the knowledge gained by getting one might.

tudodude posted

Quote:

I'd have to agree, though I work with a guy in his late 50s now who has the same problem. He finally is going to get his Master's as he is afraid soon he might be forced to leve the universities where he works with 25 years experience. I highly doubt the degree at this point will make him a better teacher, but it will fulfill a new educational requirement being pushed by the Education Ministry.

Rooster_2006

Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:56 am Post subject: Re: What ever happened to the best man for the job.

tudodude wrote:

Regarding your other comments. I don't know all they did in the early years after school but I don't think they were ever in a position to follow a degree path.
You show amazing arrogance in deciding all about them by knowing nothing about them.
Someone with a level arrogance and judgmentalness that high would not make a good teacher, in my mind.
Just my thoughts

"Not in a position to follow a degree path" -- man, excuses, excuses!

Any "teacher" over 30 without a degree is a loser. Right, I said it -- LOSER.

If a teacher is under 25, I can understand that things happen, money is tight, and a degree may slip onto the backburner.

However, at age 30, my sympathy completely disappears.

Did they seriously not realize that *EVENTUALLY* China, a country obsessed with education, would start requiring something other than a high school diploma? Did they not live through the '08 Olympic period of visa difficulties and wonder "should I get a degree before things get worse?"

Did they seriously care so little about career growth that they never bothered to explore any sort of credential related to the job they were doing?

Did they seriously not realize that there are a gazillion sources of extremely cheap/easy college credit out there, and an entire distance (accredited) BA/BS can be completed for less than $5,000 by distance, at one's own pace (fast or slow)?

I get tired of hearing the expression "it's your own fault" misapplied, but it sounds like these three "good ol' boys" that you're talking about fit the expression perfectly.

It's their own damn fault -- they set themselves up for this by repeatedly and willfully rejecting any form of higher education. And now they're paying the price. Big boo hoo.

Molson

Joined: 01 May 2009
Posts: 137
Location: China

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:34 am Post subject:

The teaching profession is too easy to get into. I am betting within my lifetime a lot of countries will start requiring B.Ed or MAs to teach in their countries. (I know a lot do, like HK, and they pay accordingly. As my friend usually says: You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.) Its gonna suck for those with just a high school diploma or a BA.

Rooster_2006

Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:06 am Post subject:

Molson wrote:

The teaching profession is too easy to get into.

I am betting within my lifetime a lot of countries will start requiring B.Ed or MAs to teach in their countries. (I know a lot do, like HK, and they pay accordingly. As my friend usually says: You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.)

Its gonna suck for those with just a high school diploma or a BA.

True, it will suck for those with just an HS diploma or a BA. And this is a bad thing for young people, who simply haven't had the time or the money to pursue these degrees yet.

Why not solve this problem by requiring a BA/BS for all the good jobs, and creating an internship program like Korea's TaLK program that allows degree-less folks under 30 to build up experience for a rate of pay that is still livable? That way, a motivated guy or gal with less than a BA/BS could still get experience, earn money, and work his or her way to a BA/BS within China via a distance degree program.

Or better yet, as I have previously suggested, use a points system that only counts degrees as a piece of the pie, and let people with, say, 10 points join the internship program, but require 20 points for the "real" jobs?

All these things just make too much darn sense to be utilized by a bureaucratic and organizational nightmare like the PRC (or most other East Asian countries), though. They'd rather just draw arbitrary, across-the-board, ill-thought-out regulations based on race, passport country, degree regardless of major, and age.

I do have some hope, though. Singapore has a points system for immigration. Japan has been talking about implementing one since June 2009, and this month, they have finally announced that they are coming up with a 5-year PR "fast track" based on a points system, so if Singapore and Japan can do it, it proves that even in East Asian bureaucracy, miracles happen.

Mr. Ed

Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Posts: 46

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:13 am Post subject: Post subject: What ever happened to the best man for the job

Post subject: What ever happened to the best man for the job. WOMEN? Lighten up.

GambateBingBangBOOM

Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:43 am Post subject:

Rooster_2006 wrote:

All these things just make too much darn sense to be utilized by a bureaucratic and organizational nightmare like the PRC (or most other East Asian countries), though. They'd rather just draw arbitrary, across-the-board, ill-thought-out regulations based on race, passport country, degree regardless of major, and age.

I do have some hope, though. Singapore has a points system for immigration. Japan has been talking about implementing one since June 2009, and this month, they have finally announced that they are coming up with a 5-year PR "fast track" based on a points system, so if Singapore and Japan can do it, it proves that even in East Asian bureaucracy, miracles happen.

But actually, in Japan, English teachers are not included in the fast-track points system. They don't think of English teachers as a priority because "English teacher" still doesn't include necessarily having a masters degree in TESOL / Applied Linguistics or having a k-12 cert, and so they don't see the difference between a career language teacher [English or otherwise] and a backpacker, so they still need to wait ten years, just like before.

rusmeister

Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:22 am Post subject:

gaijinalways wrote:

Quote:

Again, the fact that you took my quotes and attributed them to Roger certainly appears to any outside party as confusion of two people.

.

rusmeister posted

Quote:

The questions are so general that they are meaningful. Your answers to them are the things on which you base all of your opinions and actions.

They might be, but again, what is your philosophy for education?

rusmeister posted

Quote:

Yes, you might. And if you have teachers from different backgrounds, what will you get then? Alphabet soup Cool

Hi Gaijina,
Having learned a lot from my teachers (CS Lewis and GK Chesterton) over the past several years, I can say that the most practical thing a person can do is to identify the ideal and work towards it. Practice - which merely means "doing" - without thought (which is what the ideal is about) is mindless. If you would build or change anything, you must have some sort of ideal to work towards.

The trouble is, we don't agree on the ideal. It wouldn't matter if I offered my ideal, because it would not be ideal for you. My solution proceeds from a (n Orthodox) Christian worldview, and sees man as being immortal and having eternal purpose, which is to glorify God, and to be thankful for everything, including the abilities to see, hear, and write these words, and to reject ideas that oppose that as false. (I don't guess you'll cotton to that.) Yet the solution you offer me - withdraw and homeschool, as some do, still has me paying school taxes and does not let me reform the public school the way I would see it. I think any discussion about what to do is useless, because we don't agree on basic philosophy. I'll charge ahead with what's practical for me, and you'll charge ahead with what's practical for you, and we'll both charge off in opposite directions, trying to drag our conceptions of what school should be with it.

So what CAN we talk about and possibly come to some consensus on? Only on what IS; on what HAS been done, so we can identify whose philosophy has dominated public education, and likely formed the thinking - how people think, and what they find unthinkable - of most people here. That means history, Gaijina. There's nothing else sensible that we can talk about if all of our premises radically differ.

On the Tower of Babel... what you will get is the philosophy we have - one which is very good for empire-building and very bad for individuals and free thought: one based on the premise that there is no objectively true answer to the questions I posted; one that says, "It doesn't matter what you believe! It may be true for you (whatever that means) but is not true for anyone else." And so the dogmas form which make it unthinkable to insist anything to the contrary: that truth is objective and knowable, and that some beliefs more correctly describe that truth than others. That is the cardinal sin in public schools today - the thing that challenges "tolerance", "diversity" and "multiculturalism" - all of which can be good things, but which can also be bad - only nobody seems to notice that.

While I speak about what I know best - America and Russia, it applies to all western countries, who have all adopted pretty much the same model - the Prussian one. Classes of 30 children, one teacher, 6 lessons or so broken up by bells, with minor variations, one aimed at teaching standardization and obedience, not free and genuinely critical thinking. The individual teacher can do nothing against that organization or philosophy and expect to remain a teacher long. What we can discuss objectively is how that philosophy came to be the controlling philosophy that formed so many of us, and why one cannot disagree with it and hope to become a public school teacher.

Rooster_2006

Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:40 pm Post subject:

GambateBingBangBOOM wrote:

Rooster_2006 wrote:

Ummm...

Not saying that you are wrong, but how on earth can you possibly know this information at this point in time? The public doesn't even have access to the point "rubric" yet...

The points system was just announced on Debito.org (the latest source of this kind of information) on January 21, and the actual specifics of the points system haven't even been published yet. Although a few newspapers carried a brief article in June of 2009, this was strictly an article that said "the MOJ is CONSIDERING making a points system." We didn't even know until less than a month ago that they were definitely going to do it, and so far as I'm aware, nobody at this point in time knows how the points are given, how many are required for PR at the five-year mark, etc...

How can you know that it won't include English teachers?

Although you may end up being right, I can't imagine how you could possibly know this with any certainty at this time.

gaijinalways

Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:30 am Post subject:

rusmeister posted

Quote:

I agree, but rather than throw out what you have, fix it. Having a revolution every time you don't like some aspect of society doesn't strike me as terribly productive.

rusmeister posted

Quote:

The trouble is, we don't agree on the ideal. It wouldn't matter if I offered my ideal, because it would not be ideal for you. My solution proceeds from a (n Orthodox) Christian worldview, and sees man as being immortal and having eternal purpose, which is to glorify God, and to be thankful for everything, including the abilities to see, hear, and write these words, and to reject ideas that oppose that as false. (I don't guess you'll cotton to that.)

You finally got closer to answering my question about what your philosophy of education is. Unfortunately, you've couched it in religious terms, which will be a bit difficult for people who are not religious to accept (I'm more of a naturalist myself). Again though, you haven't really stated what your principles are for education, you seem to have difficulty doing that.

What is your ideal educational system?

What would you see being taught and by whom?

rusmeister posted

Quote:

Yet the solution you offer me - withdraw and homeschool, as some do, still has me paying school taxes and does not let me reform the public school the way I would see it. I think any discussion about what to do is useless, because we don't agree on basic philosophy. I'll charge ahead with what's practical for me, and you'll charge ahead with what's practical for you, and we'll both charge off in opposite directions, trying to drag our conceptions of what school should be with it.

No, again, you can answer the above questions rather than running away from them. This is why compromises are often the case in real life, and people try not to live in their own utopias (well, at least not in public anyway). People have discussions about many things, and they don't just simply say, "You don't understand my position because our basic philosophies are different, so we have nothing to talk about."

rusmeister posted

Quote:

So what CAN we talk about and possibly come to some consensus on? Only on what IS; on what HAS been done, so we can identify whose philosophy has dominated public education, and likely formed the thinking - how people think, and what they find unthinkable - of most people here. That means history, Gaijina. There's nothing else sensible that we can talk about if all of our premises radically differ.

Again, I disagree. You seem to be afraid (for a lack of a better understanding of your motives) to state clearly what you hope to accomplish with education.

I have already stated what I thought was fairly clear cut;

'better' teaching of science and mathematics (as in motivating and making these subjects more attractive) as well as a liberal arts education. As to problems with wanting more open discussion, this can be incorporated through using technology, just like we're having this discussion now across the globe. The classroom doesn't need to be only a physical place.

rusmeister posted

Quote:

On the Tower of Babel... what you will get is the philosophy we have - one which is very good for empire-building and very bad for individuals and free thought: one based on the premise that there is no objectively true answer to the questions I posted; one that says, "It doesn't matter what you believe!

I'm not sure where you got this from and why you think this. Rather I think that you need to objectively think about education and not just spout about ideals. So every country using this educational system is empire building....and since China's, Myanmar's, N. Korea's, etc. systems are different, they must not be doing that, yes?

I'm wondering, were you beaten when you asked the teachers a question? Did you get to ask why something was being learned?

I did, but the only bullying I got was from other students, some of who later graced the crime report in my town (really, it's true). Yes, nothing is perfect, and that includes educational systems that you may have adopted. There will always be some problem with each and every system that we use.

rusmeister posted

Quote:

It may be true for you (whatever that means) but is not true for anyone else." And so the dogmas form which make it unthinkable to insist anything to the contrary: that truth is objective and knowable, and that some beliefs more correctly describe that truth than others.

Truth is objective? Amazing, so one nation's history is best?
Why are we getting into beliefs, seemingly bordering on religious beliefs? Are you running a church at home and does Russia allow for nonprofit status (if so, I'd suggest you take advantage of this situation)?

I'm not sure what is true for me is not true for anyone else. Would you care to give us examples? You seem to be confusing beliefs with facts.

rusmeister posted

Quote:

That is the cardinal sin in public schools today - the thing that challenges "tolerance", "diversity" and "multiculturalism" - all of which can be good things, but which can also be bad - only nobody seems to notice that.

Again, please clarify what you seem to clearly understand, but perhaps the other posters can't quite grasp here. Multiculturalism can be bad because....

rusmeister posted

Quote:

While I speak about what I know best - America and Russia, it applies to all western countries, who have all adopted pretty much the same model - the Prussian one. Classes of 30 children, one teacher, 6 lessons or so broken up by bells, with minor variations, one aimed at teaching standardization and obedience, not free and genuinely critical thinking.

Hmm, your school must have been in a different universe than mine. Though of course, ideally we would have smaller classes, with open discussion every day (actually we had this in some of my classes). But you really think that students don't do this already outside of class? You think they don't question what their teachers said? And nowadays, can't students access open discussion on the Internet (well, the ones who have Internet access can, anyway)?

rusmeister posted

Quote:

The individual teacher can do nothing against that organization or philosophy and expect to remain a teacher long. What we can discuss objectively is how that philosophy came to be the controlling philosophy that formed so many of us, and why one cannot disagree with it and hope to become a public school teacher.

I disagree. You can work to change the system inside the system, but if you simply hide behind a religious tome and keep complaining, you probably are right, you probably won't change much.

johnnyenglishteacher

Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 41

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:50 pm Post subject:

gaijinalways wrote:

Now to get to Russian education, let's look at sheer numbers in terms of immigration and foreign students going abroad. Are you still going to try and argue that the Russian system is better based on a few anecdotes about students you knew? In other words, people generally flock to enter the better system. That's why we don't have people rushing to be citizens in N. Korea or Myanmar or people rushing to study in Japan or Russia.

You're overlooking one very important factor - language. Which do you think would be more attractive to most foreign students, studying a for a degree in English or Russian?

gaijinalways

Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:28 am Post subject:

Quote:

You're overlooking one very important factor - language. Which do you think would be more attractive to most foreign students, studying a for a degree in English or Russian?

No, I'm not. I think other things being equal, where are more employment opportunities going to exist after graduating with a degree? Where are the facilities probably going to be better and better funded for research?

I also think other things being equal, who would you hire; someone graduating from a Russian university or an American one? In other words which degree has more perceived value (who knows, being exposed to post communist ideas may be better, better keep your comrade warm in case)?

The only reasons I might choose the Russian applicant would be if I thought they were more eager to work and of course possibly work for less (in business economics always has a role). I'm not hiring this person because I think his or her mind will be 'freer'.

And, for a mathematics degree, language would be less of a factor (hence one of the reasons that child prodigies often excel in math, music, and chess). For many aspects of science, this would also apply, though obviously for communicating with people in the lab (depending on where it was) and publishing, English again would be better.

johnnyenglishteacher

Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 41

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:44 am Post subject:

gaijinalways wrote:

Quote:

You're overlooking one very important factor - language. Which do you think would be more attractive to most foreign students, studying a for a degree in English or Russian?

Of course there will be more employment opportunities in USA than in Russia with a degree, but that reflects the job market, rather than the quality of education.

To be honest, I've never been to a university in the USA or Russia, so I cannot tell you which is better for undergraduate studies (of course a US uni would be better for post-grad research). If I were an employer faced with a Russian graduate or an American graduate, I would probably do some research into the quality of Russian education, especially as I have seen the (high) quality of graduates in other ex-communist countries.

You hit the nail on the head when you say "perceived value" of US vs. Russian degrees. Having graduated from a prestigious English university, I met more than my fair share of students who spent more time getting drunk than reading books. However, I am realistic enough to know that if they turn up at a job interview clutching their 2.1 degree in English Literature, then they will have an advantage over a literature student from, say, Hungary or Slovakia, where students have to work much harder for their degrees.

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