|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
|
 Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:09 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Samantha wrote: |
| I don't think that's what she means by getting certified, so I hope she will answer. As far as I know, public schools have unions, require complete fluency in Spanish, as well as a degree, and therefore foreigners usually don't teach in them. Nor do they want to accept the low wages that are paid to teachers in public schools. |
Sorry my earlier post wasn't clearer. I was referring to being certified to teach in public schools in the States or Canada or wherever, which could help you get a job in a really good private school in Mexico. I realize that it's almost impossible for foreigners to get a job teaching in public schools in Mexico, not to mention, as you have, that wages are really low. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Dragonlady
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 720
Location: Chillinfernow, Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| wrote: |
| I think we are actually talking about two different types of jobs - jobs for certified teachers, and jobs for people who are strictly ESL teachers, with or without any formal training. |
I'm just wondering who the proverbially 'we' would be? Last I looked the title of the thread was Getting Teacher Pay Up. The discussion has covered everyone from independent teachers to language school teachers to 'backpackers', and included both nationals and foreign teachers.
| wrote: |
| ... I have interviewed at schools where the salary range was $20,000 - $35,000 pesos a month, with a very nice benefits package. |
How wonderful. The poster must be making a lot more to not have accepted the position... or perhaps upon completion of said interview, the position went to another.
| wrote: |
| ...You won�t get that much unless you are a certified teacher. Whether you can teach in many of those schools without loosing your sanity is another whole thing. So if you want to stay in Mexico and teach ESl and make more money, the easy answer to become a certified teacher. That is probably the surest, and easiest way to increase you earning potential. |
And this is the opinion of the proverbially 'we'?
| Quote: |
| BTW, I'm trying to get my hands on the 2010/11 fee schedule for the bilingual school where I'm working (Kinder to Bachillerato) to put another spin on remuneration. Will post as soon as I do. |
I have the schedule now, but as it's apparently off topic, I won't bother.
Regards,
DL |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Enchilada Potosina
Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Posts: 344
Location: Mexico
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| FreddyM wrote: |
And then of course, if you have the inside track somewhere, know somebody, you can still approach and even top $30k without certification, experience or even any teaching ability. You just gotta know people. (btw, I don't know people).  |
Y as� se mueve M�xico... think of it as a giant matrix of favours, mutual back-scratching and nepotism. Then use it to your advantage. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here are some results from a 2009 PISA (Programme for International Student Assessment) survey in education done by the OECD (Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development). Results were recently released. The survey focuses on reading skills as well as math and science but I think we can draw some conclusions in EFL.
http://www.oecd.org/document/12/0,3343,en_2649_201185_46623628_1_1_1_1,00.html
http://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,2987,en_32252351_32235731_1_1_1_1_1,00.html
Most relevant to this thread were two of the survey findings:
| Quote: |
| � High performing school systems tend to prioritise teacher pay over smaller class sizes. |
| Quote: |
| � Public and private schools achieve similar results, after taking account of their home backgrounds. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TeresaLopez
Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 601
Location: Mexico City
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Samantha wrote: |
| Teresa, please define "certified". Having a certificate from a 40 or even 100 hour TESOL course is a far cry from someone with a teaching degree. |
Yes, I should have been clearer. What I meant was to be a certified teacher in the US, Canada, UK; Ireland, that is, have a Bachelor�s degree, and done a semester of observed practice teaching. That is the only way you are going to get into an international school, and that is where most of the money is in teaching jobs in Mexico, in my experience, aside from owning your own school or business. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TeresaLopez
Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 601
Location: Mexico City
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="FreddyM"]
| Isla Guapa wrote: |
But in Mexico City, as far as I know there are really only two or three private schools that offer starting wages of 20,000+ even with those qualifications.
|
You need to do more checking, off the top of my head I can think of 10 or more. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TeresaLopez
Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 601
Location: Mexico City
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm just wondering who the proverbially 'we' would be? Last I looked the title of the thread was Getting Teacher Pay Up. The discussion has covered everyone from independent teachers to language school teachers to 'backpackers', and included both nationals and foreign teachers.
Exactly, the comments from everyone have been about a variety of situations, and levels of education, each of which pay differently. I was merely adding to the mix the option of becoming a certified teacher (that is, with a Bachelor�s Degree in Education and a semester or more of student teaching, which can vary by state)
[/quote]How wonderful. The poster must be making a lot more to not have accepted the position... or perhaps upon completion of said interview, the position went to another.
Why the sarcasm? It�s not private informaetion, there are any number of international or elite Bi-lingual schools that pay that to US certified teachers with 2 or 3 years experience. Again, I was just stating my experience, in terms of what these schools pay, and how I cam by the information. And for the record, I did accept a job at one of the schools, and also, my experience was that the students at that school were pretty self-important and intolerable, which is why I chose to take another pay, making quite a bit less money. But it seems that money is very important to a lot of people here so I thought I would mention it.
| wrote: |
| ...You won�t get that much unless you are a certified teacher. Whether you can teach in many of those schools without loosing your sanity is another whole thing. So if you want to stay in Mexico and teach ESl and make more money, the easy answer to become a certified teacher. That is probably the surest, and easiest way to increase you earning potential. |
And this is the opinion of the proverbially 'we'?
No, it is an easily confirmable fact. Go to Greengates website, or Miraflores, or any international or elite school here and see what the qualificat5ion for working there are. Again, just to be clear, I am NOT talking about a quicky 1 month or 2 month ESL �certification�, but rather a 4 year degree in Education, or teaching of ESL, or something related, And it is not an opinion, but an easily verifiable fact. The only possible exception might be for someone with a degree in Math or Science, since certified teachers ae hard to come by, the they might be accepted with just a 4 year degree. And, yes, of course, there will always be an occasional exception, but it is just that, an exception. Don�t believe me? Do some research and you will find the same information. Also, I am not the first, or only, person to comment on the behavior of the offspring of the Mexican Upper Class, though that is, of course, just my experience and opinion, though I have seen a number of other posters with the same opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MotherF
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1450
Location: 17�48'N 97�46'W
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I dropped out of the conversation because I also took it that certain participants really wanted it to focus purely on those working as independant teachers. But as to which kind of TEFL work pays, best, well we've been through all that before. Independant work has some advantages and disadvantages, and so does teaching the country's richest children. Tenured university positions can be hard to come by in some parts of the country and usually have worse hours than the private collegios and some other disadvantages.
There are lots of ways to increment our income no matter where you teach. Some people do translations. I've added freelance work for textbook publishers into the mix, though getting paid is usually a headache as you've already done the work and the person you've been working with passes your invoice off the the accounting department who are strangely hard to get in contact with and always in far off countries.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mejms
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 390
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Phil_K wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Phil: I think there is a place for standarized exams, but you've got to know how to work a curriculum and you've got to be good at it. I really appreciate your vision. |
Fair enough, but I've always taken the view that studying to pass exams is not really the point. When I was in school (UK), I did absolutely ZERO revision for my "O"- Levels, taking the view that if I didn't know the subject already, then I didn't deserve the pass. I had an English student that always passed his exams with good scores, but his spoken English was very average. In the same class there was another student who spoke pretty fluently but was terrible at exams. I'd rather be the second student! |
I completely agree, and your comment about the lack of vocational schooling here is great insight. But let's differentiate between educational purposes and administrative ones. Standarized exams are useful for summing up someone's level in a nutshell and on a global playing field. What company or university doesn't love clear-cut numbers and results? On the other hand, as intelligent educators, we're most assuredly better in assessing someone's English than any exam. So it seems to me that an effective business would know how to combine standarized exams with tailored curriculum. Of course, that's a whole lot of work and that's why hardly any business does it! In fact, in most universities, colegios, and language institutes, I see very little attention paid to curriculum.
By the way, Peanut Gallery, no doubt this is a saturated market, but I see very little competition out there for someone who actually knows what they're doing as a businessman and an educator. Develop your product tailored to your market and don't think twice about the schools on every corner.
By the way, I just want to comment that I think anyone who routinely posts on forums like this, particularly regarding these kinds of threads that really are more than just complaining and commiserating, that person is more invested in this field than your average TEFLer out there, whether backpacker or shopkeeper. Thinking back to all my past employers here, I can't imagine any of them making regular contributions to topics such as these. Why? They don't have much to say and they don't care to anyway. There may be many that are so busy running their top-quality institutions that they don't have time to chat with strangers, but I haven't met any of those yet!
Footnote: I still mean what I said just above about regular contributors here, but after posting this I realized that I actually have a couple friends out here who do not do any forum. And of course there may be some who have all their discussion and debate with their colleagues. I guess I'm just thinking out loud, wondering where all the good ones are. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MotherF
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1450
Location: 17�48'N 97�46'W
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Phil_K wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Phil: I think there is a place for standarized exams, but you've got to know how to work a curriculum and you've got to be good at it. I really appreciate your vision. |
Fair enough, but I've always taken the view that studying to pass exams is not really the point. When I was in school (UK), I did absolutely ZERO revision for my "O"- Levels, taking the view that if I didn't know the subject already, then I didn't deserve the pass. I had an English student that always passed his exams with good scores, but his spoken English was very average. In the same class there was another student who spoke pretty fluently but was terrible at exams. I'd rather be the second student! |
This has been kicking around in my head since yesterday. Off topic, but this is a problem with the type of exams the students have been taking, not a problem with exams per say. I know it's not really important in your particular EFL niche, but you should check out the CAE exam, (Certificate of Advanced English) If you can't speak fluently you are not going to pass that exam. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Professor
Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 449
Location: Mexico City
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Get TWO masters degrees and try to get on at a UNIVERSITY here. That should get ones pay up. One in TESOL and the other in Education with a specialization in English Language Learner.
Credentials my friends. Bachelors and TEFL certificates only seem to open the doors, but one needs a masters to walk through that door.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Professor wrote: |
Get TWO masters degrees and try to get on at a UNIVERSITY here. That should get ones pay up. One in TESOL and the other in Education with a specialization in English Language Learner.
Credentials my friends. Bachelors and TEFL certificates only seem to open the doors, but one needs a masters to walk through that door.
|
Seems like a lot of work to me for a potentially modest increase, IF you get one of those few high paying jobs. Wouldn't it be better to do your modest job well, learn as you go and then leverage your knowledge, making yourself indispensible?
Hmmm, I see a connection here between learning a lot of theory and expecting to do a job, and expecting to speak English by studying grammar...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Professor
Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 449
Location: Mexico City
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Phil_K wrote: |
Seems like a lot of work to me for a potentially modest increase wouldn't it be better to do your modest job well, learn as you go and then leverage your knowledge, making yourself indispensible?
|
There are risks in everything we do. A Masters doesn't mean one will get a better job but neither does trying to do better at a modest job. Making yourself indispensible???
Sorry,no such thing in the real world Phil.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TeresaLopez wrote: |
| Samantha wrote: |
| Teresa, please define "certified". Having a certificate from a 40 or even 100 hour TESOL course is a far cry from someone with a teaching degree. |
Yes, I should have been clearer. What I meant was to be a certified teacher in the US, Canada, UK; Ireland, that is, have a Bachelor�s degree, and done a semester of observed practice teaching. That is the only way you are going to get into an international school, and that is where most of the money is in teaching jobs in Mexico, in my experience, aside from owning your own school or business. |
I worked in a fresa colegio, one of the "elites" and I made $18,000 pesos per month. No degree. No cert beyond my generic TEFL.
I also know teachers that work the elite cream of the crop schools without a degree in education or even being native speakers.
Anything is possible in Mexican education. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Professor
Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 449
Location: Mexico City
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Phil_K wrote: |
Hmmm, I see a connection here between learning a lot of theory and expecting to do a job |
Usually one who looks down on advanced degrees, education and theories is one who doesn't have an advanced degree nor is working on one nor has any plans to do so.
If one lives and teaches in Mexico City for ten years for example, and then writes a book about it, is everything in that book theories or EXPERIENCE?
Same with advanced degrees. A lot of that information is based on EXPERIENCE and RESEARCH. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
