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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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John, your genius knows no bounds.  |
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Kornan DeKobb
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| El Chupacabra wrote: |
Semantics is meaning. Meanings are not trivial, when discussing a foreign policy that affects us all. But it's your reasoning that I challenge. Perhaps your use of we was just a rhetorical habit, so let's leave that aside.
You have proposed that the mission was precise and quiet. Yet the unclassified "truth", that we've all been spoonfed by the government-media complex, indicates the opposite.
Obama showed extreme cowardice by not completing a capture mission. He was afraid of what Osama might say, so he shut him up for good. |
That's exactly right. There is no way they could have taken OBL alive, as a trial would have exposed the government's 9/11 story for the official fiction that it is.
All these people on this thread talking as if OBL and al-Qaeda (creatures of US intelligence in the first place!) actually had anything to do with 9/11. Ludicrous. |
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El Chupacabra
Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 378
Location: Kwangchow
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| A genius for arrogant condescension, or a genius for avoiding logical reasoning? Or are 1/5 of us who disagree with the status quo unworthy of sane discourse? |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Mythical Beast,
This thread has been, well, a revelation. I'd never realized there are so many - how can I put it nicely - "independent thinkers'" in the ESL/EFL field.
"Or are 1/5 of us who disagree with the status quo unworthy of sane discourse?"
Yup - one lesson I learned from my crazy first wife was this: You can't reason with a crazy person.
"The good news? 70% of the US population is sane.
The Washington Post reports that, following the release of the president�s �long-form� birth certificate last week, fully 70% of Americans are now convinced that Obama was born in Hawaii, up from just 48% a year ago.
Which raises the question, what of the other 30%? Are they insane? Delusional? Hopped up on fairy dust and pharmaceutical-grade unicorn powder?
Yes.
Are they redeemable?
No, for they have always been with us."
John: You realize this leads to there being over 30 million crazy people in the US?
Dave: Does that seem wrong?
John: � a bit low, actually.
However, this NY Times columnist is far more optimistic:
"When this sort of thing happens, it is important to remember that about 5 percent of our population is and always will be totally crazy. I don�t mean mentally ill. According to the National Institute for Mental Health, 26 percent of American adults suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in any given year. So, basically, that�s just normal life. I mean crazy in the sense of �Thinks it is a good plan to joke with the flight attendant about seeing a bomb in the restroom.�
Regards,
John |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Sweet sufferin' succotash - we've ALL got it wrong:
"When channel N24 in Germany reported that Osama bin Laden was taken down by Navy SEAL Team 6, they searched for an image to place behind host Mick Locher. Instead of finding the real emblem for SEAL Team 6, researchers located the emblem of the Star Trek freedom fighters, The Maquis.
Locher even commented (translated from German) on the emblem:
"And they also have the 'Team Six,' that carried out the mission. They don't have the skull in their emblem for nothing."
Locher didn't seem to notice (or care) that the skull in question was from a Klingon and included a bolted-on eyepatch. He and N24 also appear undeterred by the emblem's inclusion of a phaser, three Klingon bat'leth swords and the word "Maquis."
TrekMovie also pointed out that the original Maquis were World War II French freedom fighters�dedicated to fighting the Germans. Ouch.
In the Star Trek universe, the Maquis were comprised of Starfleet officers and colonists like the Bajorans who were displaced by a treaty with the Federation and the Cardassian Union. The patch actually comes from a Maquis-based fan group, Maquis Forces International.
Now that they've taken out Osama bin Laden, Gul Dukat should be quaking in his boots."
http://blastr.com/2011/05/who-killed-osama-bin-lade.php |
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cassava
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 175
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| El Chupacabra wrote: |
The hit on OBL was cowardice, a fear to stick to Obama's own doctrine. And a tribute to the failed policies of the past. I'll stick to that argument until you can convince me otherwise. But please avoid fallacious reasoning if your goal is to persuade me or others. I'm not your enemy, but a fellow countryman who may disagree about some things but not all things. If we all felt the same, we would not be the great republic that we are. |
El Chupacabra:
I suspect that you and I probably have radically different definitions of the word "cowardice". My view is that since it is virtually impossible for anyone to know all the myriad details that were involved in the planning and execution of the military operation against bin Laden, the most that one can do is to express an opinion as to what really happened and why.
Therefore, when you say, "The hit on OBL was cowardice...", you are merely expressing an opinion. However, and this is not an ad hominem attack, you have the unfortunate tendency to express some of your opinions as facts. Let's say, for example, that I have met you and known you personally for some time. If I then wrote, "El Chupacabra is a male teacher from the USA who currently works as a tefler in country X", that would be a statement of fact. If, on the other hand, I wanted to comment on your financial status, I might say, "I think he is reasonably well-off"/ "He seems to be quite poor"/ "He appears to be having difficulty making ends meet".
These would be all opinions based on my assessment of various aspects of your life. They would not be facts; therefore I have to carefully qualify my statements. The problem is that when people become excited and they want to emphasize a particular point, they tend to state opinions as facts. In one of the examples given above, it might be quite possible for me to think that you are poor based on my observations, but you might very well be filthy rich and be merely reluctant to spend money. You probably know that have been many millionaires who lived their daily lives like paupers. Thus, one has to be very careful not to confuse opinions and facts and to express them appropriately.
As I said previously, bin Laden was the type of individual who filled me with utter revulsion. I think that he was a craven coward and a supreme hypocrite. I simply cannot fathom how he and his cronies could have justified murdering innocent men, women, children and babies, people who had nothing to do with him and his superstitious religious dogma. Whatever proclamations President Obama might have made in the past, I think he did the right thing on this occasion.
By the way, El C, for the record, I am Canadian. |
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Little Tiger
Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 58
Location: Zhongshan, Guangdong
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| cassava wrote: |
| I simply cannot fathom how he and his cronies could have justified murdering innocent men, women, children and babies, people who had nothing to do with him and his superstitious religious dogma |
Seems to me this statement could apply to more than one camp in the Terror Game 
| AGoodStory wrote: |
| Ah, but Fox "News" is the exception to the rule! (And, if you will note, the article isn't even claiming bin Laden's death as a fact, merely that a Pakistan newspaper did so. "The Pakistan Observer reported. . . " ) |
I was just playing devils advocate, as if all it takes to 'prove a fact' is for the MSM to report it as so. Media that has been bought and paid for by the corporations a long time ago, but they do have a perfect record for reporting though right? I mean they must do, it wouldn't be like them to lie to us either. That would be un-American. As if one station is better than other too, they are all pieces of shit really.
The fact is really, people will lie when it suits their purpose - be they government officials, media personalities, your friends or your employers. I don't know if OBL is dead or not and frankly I don't care, it's providing some great entertainment. I say give him some more bombs and lets have a real war  |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| cassava wrote: |
As I said previously, bin Laden was the type of individual who filled me with utter revulsion. I think that he was a craven coward and a supreme hypocrite. I simply cannot fathom how he and his cronies could have justified murdering innocent men, women, children and babies, people who had nothing to do with him and his superstitious religious dogma. |
Are these facts or opinions? |
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Captain_Fil
Joined: 06 Jan 2011
Posts: 604
Location: California - the land of fruits and nuts
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El Chupacabra
Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 378
Location: Kwangchow
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| cassava wrote: |
| El Chupacabra wrote: |
The hit on OBL was cowardice, a fear to stick to Obama's own doctrine. And a tribute to the failed policies of the past. I'll stick to that argument until you can convince me otherwise. But please avoid fallacious reasoning if your goal is to persuade me or others. I'm not your enemy, but a fellow countryman who may disagree about some things but not all things. If we all felt the same, we would not be the great republic that we are. |
El Chupacabra:
I suspect that you and I probably have radically different definitions of the word "cowardice". My view is that since it is virtually impossible for anyone to know all the myriad details that were involved in the planning and execution of the military operation against bin Laden, the most that one can do is to express an opinion as to what really happened and why.
Therefore, when you say, "The hit on OBL was cowardice...", you are merely expressing an opinion. However, and this is not an ad hominem attack, you have the unfortunate tendency to express some of your opinions as facts. Let's say, for example, that I have met you and known you personally for some time. If I then wrote, "El Chupacabra is a male teacher from the USA who currently works as a tefler in country X", that would be a statement of fact. If, on the other hand, I wanted to comment on your financial status, I might say, "I think he is reasonably well-off"/ "He seems to be quite poor"/ "He appears to be having difficulty making ends meet".
These would be all opinions based on my assessment of various aspects of your life. They would not be facts; therefore I have to carefully qualify my statements. The problem is that when people become excited and they want to emphasize a particular point, they tend to state opinions as facts. In one of the examples given above, it might be quite possible for me to think that you are poor based on my observations, but you might very well be filthy rich and be merely reluctant to spend money. You probably know that have been many millionaires who lived their daily lives like paupers. Thus, one has to be very careful not to confuse opinions and facts and to express them appropriately.
As I said previously, bin Laden was the type of individual who filled me with utter revulsion. I think that he was a craven coward and a supreme hypocrite. I simply cannot fathom how he and his cronies could have justified murdering innocent men, women, children and babies, people who had nothing to do with him and his superstitious religious dogma. Whatever proclamations President Obama might have made in the past, I think he did the right thing on this occasion.
By the way, El C, for the record, I am Canadian. |
And I happen to teach critical thinking to graduate students, so I'll answer your long-winded retort with pedantry. You have the unfortunate tendency to take things out of context, and your Canadian disclaimer doesn't give you a pass.
Isolated propositions are opinions, Cassava. I agree, and if the evidence you have provided were my original claim, then you'd have me. When reasons are attached, they become arguments. Reason(s) + Proposition = Argument. By not selecting my original proposition for scrutiny, and focusing on a later report, you have removed it from its original context. This hasty jump to a conclusion is itself a fallacy. My original propositions have all been fully qualified.
So for you and some of the others who are too busy to read before replying, I will paraphrase my argument. I claim that President Obama is a coward and submit the reason that he must be careful of loose lips such as OBL's. To support this reason, I provide evidence, the public knowledge that Obama is currently running his re-election campaign and the common knowledge that successful campaigns spin public information.
Now, feel free to refute my one reason and two pieces of supporting evidence. Or just ignore me, and reply to some of the other posters who have differing propositions on the alleged assassination/execution/sanction/self-defense or whatever-happened-or-didn't-happen to OBL at the beginning of May. Or just blather about Star Trek and liberal British opinion polls and dead rappers like the Mystical Troll does.
Incidentally, at least half of my students, on their own, believe that Osama bin Laden died several years ago. I suppose that's about as relevant as your being Canadian. Or me being American. Or the Mystical Troll being a genius.
Cheers. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Seriously, guys, lots of these comments are infra dig. It reminds me, quite disturbingly, of the gloating of some of my students when the planes struck the towers... |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Dear cassava,
Well, I'll give you an "A" for effort, but perhaps now you see what I mean:
" . . . one lesson I learned from my crazy first wife was this: You can't reason with a crazy person."
Not that I have anything against harmless crazy people; some of my best friends fall into that category, and even I do. Heck, in case you haven't noticed, we're ALL crazy in our own individual ways.
Some of us believe in UFOs and/or that aliens have visited Earth/live among us.
Some of us believe in Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, etc.
Some of us believe in ghosts, demons, and satanic possession.
Some of us believe that Elvis is alive and well.
Some of us believe in an old guy with a long, white beard who sits in heaven on a golden throne.
Some of us . . . .
Well, you get the idea, I think. So, as I mentioned, there's nothing wrong with espousing crazy beliefs - just as long as those beliefs don't cause us
to act in ways that are hurtful/harmful towards ourselves and/or others.
If such beliefs are harmless or even helpful to the individual and society, well, then let a thousand crazy flowers bloom.
Regards,
Crazy John |
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El Chupacabra
Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 378
Location: Kwangchow
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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And some folk believe in crazy cryogenics. Could Osama bin Laden have been pre-killed, then kept on ice until it was expedient to re-kill him?
"The body of frozen Osama was brought to Abbottabad by a helicopter under the most sophisticated and hi-tech operation and taken to the upper storey of the building. A commando immediately sprayed a blood-like solution at his face to establish that the leader of Al-Qaeda was killed on the spot. Exclusive reports and photographs acquired by the Pakistan Observer in the United States establish that the body of Osama bin Laden was transported in a coffin as seen in the accompanying night vision picture during mid-night operation. The Pentagon officials have confirmed that after some time there was a blackout at the compound and minutes later a unit of Navy SEALS staged the killing drama."
Full story is here: http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=91692
Gives a whole new sense to the meaning of a military theatre.
The Crazy Goat |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Mythical Beast,
I believe, I believe
One Osama on ice, please. And lots of chasers.
Regards,
John |
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El Chupacabra
Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 378
Location: Kwangchow
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| Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Perhaps we can call this the Osama-TV-Dinner theorem. But is that halal? |
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